Magus55

I'm not talking about them being dealt with in the afterlife, i'm talking about during our lifetimes. And God has always supported the country of Israel and her people. Israel is what the Bible and prophecy revolves around. Its where the Messiah was born, and where Heaven will be on the New Earth.

seebs

No one is flawless, but just about everyone is innocent. This is why we are consistently commanded to be kind to EVERYONE. There are no exceptions offered.

These people are as innocent as the people of Israel on the buses; they are bystanders, one and all. If we object to the Israelis being killed, we should object also to the idea of anyone else being killed. We are not authorized to pick and choose.

Demigawd

So, God, who's supposedly eternal, has a finite patience with his finite creations in regards to infinite reward or punishment. That's just a dandy mythology you got there, Magus55. All that demonstrates is the very human concept of "might makes right". Nothing holy about that at all.

Oh, and in regards to "God's children", what civilization at some point in its metaphorical life has *NOT* considered itself the chosen of God or gods? The concept that the Jews, and by proxy Christians, are the extra-special creations of this universe's creator is barbaric and ethnocentric. Again, it points to the power of "us versus them" to justify all sorts of atrocities around the world.

Demigawd

What's the bloody point of dealing out earthly justice when the supposed real justice begins after death and is eternal?

cjack

This needs to be repeated. Thank you, seebs.


There's a couple of things about the RR thread that scare me:

1. The notion that innocent Syrians are somehow worth much less than innocent Israelis.

2. Mass murder is not only acceptable, but desirable if it brings about the "End Times."

Mageth

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes, and while the killing of women and children ( or anyone for that matter) is awful, sometimes its required in this world.

What a wonderful world your God created for us.

The sooner the end times come, the sooner God returns the Earth to paradise and all the suffering ends.

Yes, your perfect God, with his wonderful track record. Do you really think he'll be successful in his handiwork this time?

Let's see, a quick chronology of God's handiwork, and how well it's worked out:

- He created angels to serve him; apparently 1/3 of them rebelled.
- He created a world and declared it "good" (some on this board have described it as "perfect"). Lo and behold, his creation manages to get screwed up royally right at the get-go. So to fix things he kicks a couple of people out of the garden and makes the serpent eat dirt.
- Well, a few hundred years later, his "perfect" creation was so screwed up he decided to wipe it clean and start over. That was his grand plan for fixing things. This new batch, after a while, got a bit pretentious so he knocked down their little tower and scattered them about, confusing their language. Good plan there, god; if you can't beat 'em, divide 'em.
- He came up with a new plan; select a tribe to be his Chosen People. Right from the start, these people gave him headaches, so he gave them some laws. Even then, the chosen people kept mucking things up for him, demanding kings and what not. He tried several times to fix things, having them exiled, sending prophets, etc. None of these things God tried worked either.
- So he decided to bite the big one and do something drastic - go down there himself (it'd been a while since he tried this). Get himself killed as a patch, a hopefully permanent fix to the mess he created, so that maybe he wouldn't be so mad and have to kill everyone again. Set up a different kind of "chosen people" - the Church.
- Well, the new chosen people haven't fared much better; the early church started out OK, but problems and schisms soon arose. The bible recounts some of these difficulties. Out of this original mess, a couple of hundred years later an organized Church arises.
- A bit down the road, this Church splits into Eastern and Western branches over some quibble or another. Later on, another major schism; the Western branch again splits to form the Protestants. That group itself has many major and minor schisms through the centuries.
- Another major split in the Western branch (RC) occurs in England - Anglicanism is born.
- Leading us to today, with thousands of different "denominations" and several major branches (e.g. Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism) of Christianity.
- And the "permanent fix" he tried 2000 years ago? It didn't work on at least 2/3 of the people in the world, according to some. God's gonna have to throw most people away anyways. Good plan there, God. Way to execute.

And how, pray tell, do you expect me to believe God is gonna come down get things right the next time? At best, he seems to be an incompetent bumbler when it comes to such things, looking at his record so far.

Mageth

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Magus55
God loves everyone more than you can imagine. And there is a difference between patience, and letting God's children suffer longer than needed.

So he loves God's children more?

And I can imagine God loving everyone enough not to let anyone go to hell, or perish, or suffer on this earth "as much as needed" or in the afterlife. Isn't that more than the God you describe?

God is patient for as many people as possible to come to repentence, so they don't face Hell ( perish).

Then he doesn't seem to love everyone as much as you claim, if any will perish (face Hell).

There is a breaking point though at which God will declare enough.

Once again, a limit on God's suppose loving everyone "more than you can imagine."

So "His mercy is everlasting" and other such references in the Bible are meaningless, then?

Solsticin

*blink*


*pictures Jesus with an M-16 looking all pissed off*


*shudders*


So killing people is OK when it's Israel/America doing the killing? How convenient.

When the hell did the nation of Israel start representing the Israel in the Bible exactly? Those two things are completely unrelated. Trying to say that 'god' meant the Israel of today is a HUGE stretch of the imagination. Talk to a few biblical scholars and I'm sure they will give you a blank stare if you equate today's nation of Israel with the people of Israel in the Bible.

Is this just another Sodom to you? You know, a lot of people think America is modern day Sodom. Is it OK to blow us the hell up then?

I just don't follow this ignorant logic. I never understood the bombing of Japan either (well, until recently, but I still don't know how the hell we let ourselves do it). I have secretly wished someone would nuke the entire Middle East (Israel definitly included) but I'm not about to wish for that. That's a sick fucking thing to wish for.

What would the environmental effects be like from that large of a bombing? Israel would be killing themselves I would think.

seebs

Indeed. It seems to me that this is right on the edge of telling God what to do. "Sorry, but your plans aren't good enough. You have to be here by Thursday after next, or the whole thing's a wash. P.S.: Stop being ineffable, we have a right to simple answers."

I dunno. I find the whole thing depressing. My opinion on the "End Times" has been static for a long time: It is none of my damn business. I will do my best to follow God's instructions, and trust Him to take care of the rest.

I think that being eager for the End Times is sort of pointless. I mean, the conventional belief is we'll be happy for all of eternity. That's plenty long enough; I don't need to fuss about whether or not I get an extra few years tacked on at the beginning. If the world hasn't ended yet, presumably God wants us to do something in it, and I'd rather do that than fuss at Him about hurrying.

Rational BAC

The end times will come when the end times come.

They have not come for the last 2000 years or so. They may not come for another 2000 years or so.

In the meantime, let us all not kill each other for no particularly good reason.