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Old 09-24-2007, 05:29 AM   #61
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I think what Dave is doing is parroting the Wiseman's (father and son) analysis or popularity analysis cloaked in pseudo-archaeological evidence based on Nuzi, Mari and Ebla findings in regards to the "Tablet Theory" (do correct me if I am wrong). However, the proposition by Graf in regards to DH still holds as a solid analysis for the OT.

IF Moses was the secondary author (who transcribed the tablets), then JEDP still holds as a critique more so if for example Nuzi tablets are Akkadian yet the JEDP shows a mixture of semetic languages..

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Old 09-24-2007, 05:29 AM   #62
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I've read Josh McDowell.

Josh McDowell is (not) a friend of mine.

Josh McDowell is no biblical scholar.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:32 AM   #63
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I did read the information Dean provided on the DH itself with interest and will comment on it in due course.
Good. If you choose to keep quibbling about fallacies and about Josh McDowell's status as a scholar (neither of which have anything to do with the actual evidence for the DH vs Wiseman's theory) then I'll keep reminding you of this.

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My next post will expand on my OP and show support for McDowell's assertion regarding the Presuppositions of the Documentarians.
Don't bother.

I've given you a fairly lengthy description of the evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis, and the conclusions that the DH derives from this. If you wish to attack the DH, attack what I have written about it.

Why would you prefer to attack what an opponent of the DH claims the DH is than to attack what the DH proponent that you are actually talking to says it is?

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In subsequent posts, I will provide positive evidence for the existence of pre-Flood writings which were handed down to Noah and preserved up to Moses' day.
Excellent! I'll hold you to your promise to supply this evidence.

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I would challenge Dean to do the same for the supposed 'J, E, D, and P' documents. I don't think he can do so.
I already have. I didn't just type all that yesterday for the good of my health, you know. It is evidence that splitting the Torah in the way that the DH does is the only way that explains the consilience between the different ways of measuring the differences between different parts of the text.

If, of course, you are demanding that I produce actual physical copies of these old documents, then I'll just demand the same from you - to produce an actual physical copy of a pre-flood tablet written by Adam.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:35 AM   #64
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I've read Josh McDowell.

Josh McDowell is (not) a friend of mine.

Josh McDowell is no biblical scholar.
In 1982 McDowell was awarded an honorary Doctor of Laws degree by the Simon Greenleaf School of Law, in recognition of his ministry and writings. McDowell was also a visiting lecturer at that school in the 1980s.

The Simon Greenleaf School of Law was the brain-child of John Warwick Montgomery. Montgomery rose to prominence in the 1960s as a confessional Lutheran theologian and as a Christian apologist.
I just had a horrid flashback of Doctor Hovind and Patriot University.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Alcyonian View Post
I think what Dave is doing is parroting the Wiseman's (father and son) analysis or popularity analysis cloaked in pseudo-archaeological evidence based on Nuzi, Mari and Ebla findings in regards to the "Tablet Theory" (do correct me if I am wrong).
I don't think his argument is that sophisticated.

I have a horrible feeling that his argument is simply:

1) I believe in The Flood and the Young Earth.
2) Wiseman's theory entails an historical Moses and an historical Adam.
3) Therefore I can use Wiseman's theory to support my beliefs.
4) The DH contradicts Wiseman's theory.
5) McDowell claims that the DH is "refuted".
6) Therefore, I'll use McDowell's claims to discredit the DH.

I'm hoping that he will prove me wrong - but his emphasis so far on what McDowell says, rather than what Wiseman says or what the DH itself says does not fill me with confidence...
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:41 AM   #66
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Genesis is an oral tradition and made up at that.

Morning Dave.

I missed whether you were going to retract or defend your position on Yamaguchi. I made a thread and I saw that you looked in it. Just Curious which it is. It bothers me to think that you might stoop to dishonesty. We've become friends and all.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:46 AM   #67
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REFUTATION OF ERRORS
There are several errors of fact in Dean's posts that need to be corrected first. This post will be dedicated to that, then I will begin in a subsequent post to give the positive case for the various Tablet Theories.

1) McDOWELL IS ATTACKING A STRAWMAN. Dean says that none of the following ...
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DOCUMENTARY PRESUPPOSITIONS
1) Priority of source analysis over archaeology
2) Natural view of Israel's religion and history
3) No writing in Israel at Moses' time
4) Legendary view of the patriarchal narratives
are basic assumptions upon which the DH is built. ANSWER: Dean refutes himself regarding #1 in the opening sentence of his very next post. He writes ... Yes. Exactly. Thanks. That's exactly what McDowell means by #1 above. He means that the Documentarians derive their hypothesis from the text itself, rather than from external evidence, such as that provided by archaeology.
Boy, you need to have your coffee with lysergic acid diethylamide -25 before you post Dave. When you read the text, then look at the archeology...

Oh well. You're not into figuring out what your sources are saying I guess.

Just wondering about yamaguchi. I'll bump the thread for you.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:57 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dean Anderson View Post

I don't think his argument is that sophisticated.

I have a horrible feeling that his argument is simply:

1) I believe in The Flood and the Young Earth.
2) Wiseman's theory entails an historical Moses and an historical Adam.
3) Therefore I can use Wiseman's theory to support my beliefs.
4) The DH contradicts Wiseman's theory.
5) McDowell claims that the DH is "refuted".
6) Therefore, I'll use McDowell's claims to discredit the DH.

I'm hoping that he will prove me wrong - but his emphasis so far on what McDowell says, rather than what Wiseman says or what the DH itself says does not fill me with confidence...
Hi, Dean :notworthy:

To offer a refutation of the JEDP is to blatantly question the actual authenticity of the Pentateuch - seriously. Unless McDowell is claiming an interpolation. Most probably its aetiologically incohesive with a compilation (Siberlman and Finkelstein - Archaeology Today: The Bible Unearthed) of authors, post-Moses (though thats a whole different thread altogether).

However, more bluntly, McDowell is not a credible source.

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Old 09-24-2007, 06:00 AM   #69
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Evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis

The Documentary Hypothesis is derived from the text of the Torah, rather than from "basic assumptions" or pre-suppositions. It is the view held by the vast majority of mainstream Biblical scholars - most of which are either Christian or Jewish. This itself is prima facie evidence that the DH is not based on "anti-supernaturalism". Dave has claimed repeatedly that support of the DH is declining rapidly amongst Biblical scholars, but - just like claims that support of Evolution is declining rapidly amongst scientists - such claims are merely empty assertions. Dave has not given any examples of mainstream Biblical scholars who used to support the DH but no longer do. Instead, he has given us Josh McDowell; who is an evangelical apologist, and most certainly not a Biblical scholar. His appeal to this authority is on the level of appealing to Ken Ham as an authority on evolutionary biology. His authority is not an expert in a relevant field of study, and merely attacks a strawman version of the field because it disagrees with his a-priori theological viewpoint.

Firstly, let's look at what the DH actually is, rather than what McDowell and Dave claim it to be...

The DH splits most of the Torah (and much of the post-Torah Deuteronomic History) into four sources.

'J' - or Jahwist.
'E' - or Elohist.
'P' - or Priestly.
'D' - or Deutronomic.

This split is done by a number of criteria.

1) Linguistic style and development.
2) Emphasis on particular themes (including the times at which different names are used for God).
3) Duplication of stories.

The vast majority of the Torah and Deuteronomic History can be split, using these criteria, and placed in one of the four sources. In practice, The majority of Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomic Hstory is assigned to the D source and most of Genesis-Leviticus is split between the other three sources. There are occasional passages or stories that fit into none of the four main sources, and which can therefore be inferred to be other minor documents that have been incorporated into the text. Also, there are a few snippets of text which match no source and appear to have been inserted by the editors who patched the sources together.

Now, on to the evidence itself (most of the information here comes from Professor Richard Friedman's excellent books on the DH).

Basically, we can take a text as long as the Torah and split it up in a myriad of ways. The DH splits it up one way. The translators and scribes of the Bible usually split it a different way (into the 5 books Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). There are many, many other ways we could split the text up.

So how do we judge whether the way we have split the text is the way it was written? Well, if we look at lots of different aspects of the text where there is variation - and the variation correlates strongly with our splits - then it is likely that our splits match the structure of the document itself. Conversely, if we look at lots of different aspects of the text where there is variation, and the variation correlates only weakly (or not at all) with our splits, then it is likely that our splits are arbitrary and do not correspond to the structure of the document itself.

That's right. The DH is based on - wait for it - consilience between many independant measures. Dave's favourite word.

So, without further ado, let's look at some of these measures (I am summarising heavily here. There is much more evidence than can be fit in a single forum post):

1) Theological Interests

a) Name of God - The multiple sources all use both Yahweh and Elohim (the claim that the DH splits the text between text that uses one name and text that uses the other is another strawman). However, if we look at all the J texts, they are consistent in that people started to call God Yahweh right from the beginning (Gen 4:1 and Gen 4:26). The P and E texts, however, are both consistent in that people only started to call God Yahweh when he revealed his name to Moses (Ex 6:2-3). Additionally, whilst the J author does call God Elohim, he only ever does this whilst narrating events - he never has a character refer to God as Elohim.

b) Nature and Role of Priests - In all the P text, priests of the line of Aaron are the only people with access/communication to God. There are no angelic visitations, dreams, talking animals, or anything else like that. All the other sources include God communicating with people via these means. E and D both repeatedly refer to prophets and prophesy. Neither P nor J ever does (P uses the word once - metaphorically - to refer to Aaron himself). P never mentions judges - only allowing Aaronid priests to mediate. P also does not classify non-Aaronid Levites as priests, and only allows the Aaronids have access to the Urim and Tummim. P only allows atonement for sins via sacrifices brought to Aaronid priests. In short, in P sources, the Aaronid priests and only the Aaronid priests have access to God. In D, on the other hand, all Levites are considered priests.

c) Nature of God - in P, as I have mentioned, the only contact with God is through priests. God never appears in person. He is never referred to as merciful or kind - indeed, the words "mercy", "kindness", "grace" and "repentence" are never used in P. The God described in P is implacable and all stories about him refer only to his wrath and justice; never to positive character traits. All the stories with positive (and more human) character traits of God are in J and E. In J, on the other hand, God makes frequent personal appearances. He walks in the garden in Eden, personally makes Adam and Eve's clothes, personally closes the door of the Ark, and so on. In E as well, God wrestles with Jacob and appears personally to Moses. In P, on the other hand, God never makes a personal appearance.

d) The Tabernacle is mentioned more than two hundred times. All except three of these are in P (where it recieves huge amounts of attention). E and J never mention it once.

e) J often refers to the Ark of the Covenant. E never mentions it once.

f) The Urim and Tummim, divining items that the High Priest holds, are mentioned only in P.

g) In E, it is only ever Moses's staff that performs miracles. In P, it is only ever Aaron's staff that performs miracles.

2) Doublets and Triplets

There are more than 30 cases of repetition of stories and/or laws in the Torah. Often the two (or occasionally even three) versions will be slightly different. There are also many apparent contradictions. When the Torah is split stylistically into the J, E, P and D sources; all these every single one of these repetitions ends up with the two or three different versions being in different styles and from different sources. I won't bother listing them all here. Similarly, the vast majority of the apparent contradictions disappear since the contradictory text is split between different sources.

3) Linguistic Evidence

In the same way that one can easily tell Chaucer from Shakespeare, Shakespeare from Dickens, and Dickens from modern authors by the changes in the English language that have taken place over the centuries, we can also distinguish between different ages of the Hebrew language used in the Bible.

a) The Hebrew used in both J and E is early Hebrew.

b) The Hebrew used in P is from a later development of the language, but still earlier than the Exilic period.

c) The Hebrew used in D is from a later still development of the language, from the Exilic period.

4) Narrative Continuity

a) We can take each of the four sources individually, and reading only the text that is stylistically assigned to that source in isolation we get a continuous narrative in more than 90% of the text breaks. For example, the J text taken individually - skipping over all non-J text - it shows a consistent narrative flow as if it were a single written document.

b) Additionally, the J and E texts show narrative flow when combined together. They also show ideosyncratic phrases at their joins as if they were combined by an editor who left traces of their handiwork as they stitched the two sources together.

c) Similarly, the places where J and E are joined to P show phrases that indicate traces of a (different) editor.

4) Similarity to other parts of the Bible

a) The language and terminology of D is very similar to the language and terminology of the book of Jeremiah. None of the other sources are.

b) The language and terminology of P is very similar to the language and terminology of the book of Ezekiel. None of the other sources are.

c) The book of Hosea quotes and/or refers to sections of the Torah. It only ever does so with regard to sections assigned to the E and J sources, however; not the P and D sources.

d) The Court History of David (most of 2 Samuel), as well as much of Joshua, Judges and 1 Samuel, is very similar in language and terminology to the J source - to the extent that some scholars believe it was written by the same hand.

5) Miscellaneous Stylistics

a) J and P both refer to Mount Sinai repeatedly. E and D refer to it as Mount Horeb. There are no exceptions to this.

b) The phrase "in that very day" is not found in any source other than P.

c) The phrase "with all your heart and with all your soul" only ever occurs in D.

There are a couple of dozen examples like these of phrases used only in one source and never in others. Again, I won't bother listing them all here.



Conclusion

There is much more evidence than I have presented here, but this should be enough for starters.

It could be argued that any of the distinctions made above is arbitrary. For example, it could be argued that the reason doublets and triplets split between the sources is that the sources were deliberately arranged that way.

However, this misses the point. The point is the consilience between all the different measures. Whichever way you arrive at the split into J, E, P and D, the split agrees with all the other measures of difference within the text.

In other words, the DH explains the consilience between the different ways of dividing the text. Whether it is divided by author's theological interest or divided by age of language or divided to split duplications we arrive at the same source texts. And these source texts - that were derived by other means - each have consistency in phraseology and a consistent narrative flow. If the splitting of the text by any of these criteria was arbitrary, then we would not see such consistency with the other ways of splitting it.

Given the age of the Hebrew in each of these sources, and the presence of the "stitching" phrases between them, it would be unreasonable to come to any conclusion other than:

Originally J and E were written, telling the same stories with slightly different emphases. At some point these were edited together into a single JE document. Some time after the writing of the first documents, a P document was written - telling the same stories but with a very different theological basis. Some time later still, a D document was written telling the more recent history of Judah and Israel (and claiming that they were once a unified kingdom). At some point after this, all four documents were edited together into a single document that became the Torah we know.

Of course, if we wanted to go into detail, we can actually infer much more about exactly where and when each of the documents was written - but that is way beyond the scope of this current discussion.

Dave's hypothesis (or rather, Wiseman's hypothesis that Dave is parrotting) says that the J, E, P and D splits are in the wrong place. His hypothesis is that the text should be split into a series of "Tablets" each written by a Biblical character (Adam, Noah, etc). He places the splits such that we have the entire text of "Adam's Tablet", and then the entire text of the next tablet, and so on. This, of course, means that within each tablet there is a variety of writing styles and writing in Hebrew of a variety of ages.

So, Dave - the ball is in your court.

How does your theory of Biblical authorship explain the consilience between the different ways in which there are textual differences? How do you explain the fact that when split using the DH, the text sources are consistent when each of these criteria is applied - yet when split using your criteria, the sources are inconsistent when each of the criteria is applied?
Thanks for this, Dean. Clear, succinct, well written. I teach English, and it's very difficult to convince students that I can spot stylistic differences between their writing and the writing they crib from the Web. I'm going to write some samples using Shakespearean English, Middle English, and Old English for an illustration. An idea I owe to you. Thanks.

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Old 09-24-2007, 06:04 AM   #70
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Genesis is an oral tradition and made up at that.
This is certainly not true. Genesis bristles with literary artefacts, different versions of the same story -- sometimes threaded together --, structuring devices such as the toledoths (summary statements mentioning generations), stories from earlier literary traditions, such as creation and the flood, and those earlier traditions can sometimes help to make clearer the more cryptic aspects of the Genesis text.

Oral tradition, schmoral tradition.


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