Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-20-2013, 11:53 PM

Yes but if you look at the books listed there, there are almost no references to the terms 'Jews' and 'Jewish' in the main commentaries on the books of Genesis. Posterity of Cain is the only early book (for the books of Philo are generally thought to have been written in order) that makes reference to this term so:

On the Creation - no
Allegorical Interpretation, I - no
Allegorical Interpretation, II - no
Allegorical Interpretation, III - no
On the Cherubim - no
On the Birth of Abel and the Sacrifices Offered by Him and by His Brother Cain - no
That the Worse is Wont to Attack the Better - no
On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile - yes
On the Giants - no
On the Unchangableness of God - no
On Husbandry - no
Concerning Noah's Work as a Planter - no
On Drunkenness - no
On the Prayers and Curses Uttered by Noah When He Became Sober - no
On the Confusion of Tongues - no
On the Migration of Abraham - no
Who is the Heir of Divine Things? - no
On Mating with the Preliminary Studies - no
On Flight and Finding - no
On the Change of Names - no
On Dreams, That They are God-Sent - no
On Abraham - no
On Joseph - no
On the Life of Moses, I - yes
On the Life of Moses, II - yes
The Decalogue - yes
The Special Laws, I - yes
The Special Laws, II - yes
The Special Laws, III - yes
The Special Laws, IV - yes'
etc. yes, yes, yes, yes

The point here is that many have suspected that as we get into Philo's later period contemporary events in Alexandria (= anti-Jewish pogroms) have taken over. Indeed most people think that Philo is directing his writings at Greeks as a means of preventing widespread hatred of Jews in Egypt. As such, depending on when De Vita Contemplativa was written it wouldn't at all have been surprising to avoid referencing the specific 'Jewishness' of the sect.

stephan huller · 01-20-2013, 11:56 PM

But again it all comes down to:

1. Philo being the author of the Vita Contemplativa?
2. Philo being Jewish?
3. Jews being prohibited from worshiping foreign gods?
4. Philo being our only source of information for the Therapeutai who live near Lake Mareotis?
5. Philo connecting the Essaioi and the Therapeutai?
6. Philo identifying the Essaioi as a Jewish sect?
7. Philo approving of the Therapeutai and condemning the worship of demigods and contemporary Egyptian religion?
8. Philo only being capable of approving 'Jewish' religious forms because he is Jewish

If the Therapeutae are related to the Essenes by Philo the Jew and the Essenes are Jewish and Philo can only approve of Jewish sects, then the Therapeutae are necessarily ...

Clivedurdle · 01-21-2013, 02:32 AM

Quote:

A certain man, illegitimately born of two unequal parents, namely, an Egyptian father and a Jewish mother, and who disregarded the national and hereditary customs which he had learnt from her, as it is reported, inclined to the Egyptian impiety, being seized with admiration for the ungodly practices of the men of that nation for the Egyptians, almost alone of all men, set up the earth as a rival of the heaven considering the former as entitled to honours equal with those of the gods, and giving the latter no especial honour, just as if it were proper to pay respect to the extremities of a country rather than to the king's palace. For in the world the heaven is the most holy temple, and the further extremity is the earth; though this too is in itself worthy of being regarded with honour; but if it is brought into comparison with the air, is as far inferior to it as light is to darkness, or night to day, or corruption to immortality, or a mortal to God. (195) For, since that country is not irrigated by rain as all other lands are, but by the inundations of the river which is accustomed every year to overflow its banks; the Egyptians, in their impious reason, make a god of the Nile, as if it were a copy and a rival of heaven, and use pompous language about the virtue of their country.

XXXVII. (196) Accordingly, this man of mixed race, having had a quarrel with some one of the consecrated and well-instructed house of Israel, becoming carried away by his anger, and unable to restrain himself, and being also an admirer and follower of the impiety of the Egyptians, extended his impiety from earth to heaven, cursing it with his accursed, and polluted, and defiled soul, and with his wicked tongue, and with the whole power of all his vocal organs in the superfluity of his ungodliness; though it ought to be blessed and praised, not by all men, indeed, but only by those who are most virtuous and pious, as having received perfect purification. (197) Wherefore Moses, marvelling at his insanity and at the extravagance of his audacity, although he was filled with a noble impetuosity and indignation, and desired to slay the man with his own hand, nevertheless feared lest he should be inflicting on him too light a punishment; for he conceived that no man could possibly devise any punishment adequate to such enormous impiety. (198) And since it followed of necessity that a man who did not worship God could not honour his father either, or his mother, or his country, or his benefactors, this man, in addition to not reverencing them, dared to speak ill of them (193 - 197)

(more on the fate of the man who was killed for going back to Egyptian religion)

Is this Jesus of Nazareth?

premjan · 01-21-2013, 02:38 AM

Sounds compelling to me.

mountainman · 01-21-2013, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But again it all comes down to:

1. Philo being the author of the Vita Contemplativa?

This may be questioned.

See the following comments from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._Contemplativa

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

there are great dissimilarities between the fundamental conceptions of the author of the "De Vita Contemplativa" and those of Philo.

The latter looks upon Greek culture and philosophy as allies, the former is hostile to Greek philosophy (see Siegfried in "Protestantische Kirchenzeitung," 1896, No.42).

He repudiates a science that numbered among Its followers the sacred baud of the Pythagoreans, inspired men like Parmenides, Empedocles, Zeno, Cleanthes, Heraclitus, and Plato, whom Philo prized ("Quod Omnis Probus," i., ii.; "Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," 43; "De Providentia," ii. 42, 48, etc.).

He considers the symposium a detestable, common drinking-bout. This can not be explained as a Stoic diatribe; for in this case Philo would not have repeated it.

And Philo would have been the last to interpret the Platonic Eros in the vulgar way in which it is explained in the "De Vita Contemplativa," 7 (ii. 480), as he repeatedly uses the myth of double man allegorically in his interpretation of Scripture ("De Opificio Mundi," 24; "De Allegoriis Legum," ii. 24).

It must furthermore be remembered that Philo in none of his other works mentions these colonies of allegorizing ascetics, in which he would have been highly interested had he known of them.

But pupils of Philo may subsequently have founded near Alexandria similar colonies that endeavored to realize his ideal of a pure life triumphing over the senses and passions; and they might also have been responsible for the one-sided development of certain of the master's principles.

While Philo desired to renounce the lusts of this world, he held fast to the scientific culture of Hellenism, which the author of this book denounces.

Although Philo liked to withdraw from the world in order to give himself up entirely to contemplation, and bitterly regretted the lack of such repose ("De Specialibus Legibus," 1 [ii. 299]), he did not abandon the work that was required of him by the welfare of his people

Quote:

2. Philo being Jewish?

Momigliano writes that "Philo is another historian who cannot be classified either a Greek or a Jew.":

Quote:

4. Philo being our only source of information for the Therapeutai who live near Lake Mareotis?

AFAIK Philo is the only source.

I have repeated asked for any other source that describes a Jewish sect of therapeutae.

No other source has been cited in this thread to date.

Feel free to cite another source which corroborates Philo's "VC".

aa5874 · 01-21-2013, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

...The point here is that many have suspected that as we get into Philo's later period contemporary events in Alexandria (= anti-Jewish pogroms) have taken over. Indeed most people think that Philo is directing his writings at Greeks as a means of preventing widespread hatred of Jews in Egypt. As such, depending on when De Vita Contemplativa was written it wouldn't at all have been surprising to avoid referencing the specific 'Jewishness' of the sect.

Again, your position is completely illogical. You claimed that Philo NEVER mentioned the words 'Jew' and 'Jewish' [without even looking] which indicates that you were NOT familiar with the writings of Philo.

The actual evidence do confirm that the Therapeutae were NOT classified as Jews but those called Essenes.

Philo classified the Essenes as living in Judea and of Jewish origin but NO such thing is done for the Therapeutae in "On the Contemplative Life"

Philo's Hypothetica

Quote:

But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine, honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness.

And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities....

Philo's "Every Good Man is Free"

Quote:

... Moreover Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which countries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits.

There is a portion of those people called Essenes, in number something more than four thousand in my opinion...

It is confirmed by Josephus that the Essenes were a Jewish sect and Pliny the Elder also stated that the Essenes lived West of the Dead Sea.

See "Wars of the Jews", "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus and Pliny's "Natural History".

Unlike the Essenes, nowhere is it stated or corroborated that the Therapeutae lived in Judea, or were of Jewish origin in the writings of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder.

mountainman · 01-21-2013, 06:57 AM

Strong's G2323

therapeuō

θεραπεύω

Part of Speech: verb

Quote:

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to serve, do service

2) to heal, cure, restore to health

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 44

AV — heal 38, cure 5, worship 1

Strong's Number G2323 matches the Greek θεραπεύω (therapeuō),
which occurs 44 times in 43 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Aside from Jesus' bunch of bonehead apostles were there many Jewish sects in antiquity that were renown for their ability to heal or to cure?

aa5874 · 01-21-2013, 08:40 AM

I do NOT accept imagination or speculative opinion as evidence at all.

Philo wrote about the Essenes in the "Hypothetica" and "Every Good Man is Free" and specifically claimed that the Essenes Lived in Judea and were Jews.

The claims of Philo about the Essenes are corroborated by Josephus and Pliny the Elder,who themselves are CONTEMPORARIES of the Essenes.

There is NO claim by Philo in any writings that the Therapeteutae were Jews and that they lived in Judea.

I am dealing with the actual writings. I no longer accept imagination as evidence which is a UNIVERSAL standard in any investigation.

andrewcriddle · 01-21-2013, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

A certain man, illegitimately born of two unequal parents, namely, an Egyptian father and a Jewish mother, and who disregarded the national and hereditary customs which he had learnt from her, as it is reported, inclined to the Egyptian impiety, being seized with admiration for the ungodly practices of the men of that nation for the Egyptians, almost alone of all men, set up the earth as a rival of the heaven considering the former as entitled to honours equal with those of the gods, and giving the latter no especial honour, just as if it were proper to pay respect to the extremities of a country rather than to the king's palace. For in the world the heaven is the most holy temple, and the further extremity is the earth; though this too is in itself worthy of being regarded with honour; but if it is brought into comparison with the air, is as far inferior to it as light is to darkness, or night to day, or corruption to immortality, or a mortal to God. (195) For, since that country is not irrigated by rain as all other lands are, but by the inundations of the river which is accustomed every year to overflow its banks; the Egyptians, in their impious reason, make a god of the Nile, as if it were a copy and a rival of heaven, and use pompous language about the virtue of their country.

XXXVII. (196) Accordingly, this man of mixed race, having had a quarrel with some one of the consecrated and well-instructed house of Israel, becoming carried away by his anger, and unable to restrain himself, and being also an admirer and follower of the impiety of the Egyptians, extended his impiety from earth to heaven, cursing it with his accursed, and polluted, and defiled soul, and with his wicked tongue, and with the whole power of all his vocal organs in the superfluity of his ungodliness; though it ought to be blessed and praised, not by all men, indeed, but only by those who are most virtuous and pious, as having received perfect purification. (197) Wherefore Moses, marvelling at his insanity and at the extravagance of his audacity, although he was filled with a noble impetuosity and indignation, and desired to slay the man with his own hand, nevertheless feared lest he should be inflicting on him too light a punishment; for he conceived that no man could possibly devise any punishment adequate to such enormous impiety. (198) And since it followed of necessity that a man who did not worship God could not honour his father either, or his mother, or his country, or his benefactors, this man, in addition to not reverencing them, dared to speak ill of them (193 - 197)

(more on the fate of the man who was killed for going back to Egyptian religion)

Is this Jesus of Nazareth?

I'm not sure if you are serious but this is Philo's version of Leviticus 24.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 01-21-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I can't figure out what the dispute is about. Pete started this thread in an attempt to show that the history of a pagan group had been hijacked to become part of early Christian history. But there is no evidence that the standard analysis is not correct - that the Therapeutae were a Jewish group whose history was hijacked by Eusebius to be part of early Christian history. .

The standard analysis involves "special pleading". The case is summarised by Robert's contibution above:

Quote:

The verb θεραπεύω/therapeuo in some form appears in some 300 extant Greek documents from antiquity, sometimes dozens of usages in the same text, for a total of thousands of instances. It is therefore hardly an obscure term. Yet, the scholarship concerning the mysterious Therapeuts of Philo makes it seem as if this word is very unfamiliar to both us and the ancient readers of Greek. That misconception needs to be disabused, as does the notion that Philo's Therapeuts were the only such individuals by that name in the Mediterranean of the time.

The "special pleading" would have us ignore the thousands of instances in which the term refers to a non Jewish class of people, and focus myopically upon the one single CHURCH PRESERVED source of Philo's "VC" which above I have shown to be questionable, and possibly corrupt.

Why is the CHURCH PRESERVED Philonic "VC" source" the subject of special pleading in this instance?

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01-20-2013, 11:53 PM	#261
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes but if you look at the books listed there, there are almost no references to the terms 'Jews' and 'Jewish' in the main commentaries on the books of Genesis. Posterity of Cain is the only early book (for the books of Philo are generally thought to have been written in order) that makes reference to this term so: On the Creation - no Allegorical Interpretation, I - no Allegorical Interpretation, II - no Allegorical Interpretation, III - no On the Cherubim - no On the Birth of Abel and the Sacrifices Offered by Him and by His Brother Cain - no That the Worse is Wont to Attack the Better - no On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile - yes On the Giants - no On the Unchangableness of God - no On Husbandry - no Concerning Noah's Work as a Planter - no On Drunkenness - no On the Prayers and Curses Uttered by Noah When He Became Sober - no On the Confusion of Tongues - no On the Migration of Abraham - no Who is the Heir of Divine Things? - no On Mating with the Preliminary Studies - no On Flight and Finding - no On the Change of Names - no On Dreams, That They are God-Sent - no On Abraham - no On Joseph - no On the Life of Moses, I - yes On the Life of Moses, II - yes The Decalogue - yes The Special Laws, I - yes The Special Laws, II - yes The Special Laws, III - yes The Special Laws, IV - yes' etc. yes, yes, yes, yes The point here is that many have suspected that as we get into Philo's later period contemporary events in Alexandria (= anti-Jewish pogroms) have taken over. Indeed most people think that Philo is directing his writings at Greeks as a means of preventing widespread hatred of Jews in Egypt. As such, depending on when De Vita Contemplativa was written it wouldn't at all have been surprising to avoid referencing the specific 'Jewishness' of the sect.

01-20-2013, 11:56 PM	#262
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But again it all comes down to: 1. Philo being the author of the Vita Contemplativa? 2. Philo being Jewish? 3. Jews being prohibited from worshiping foreign gods? 4. Philo being our only source of information for the Therapeutai who live near Lake Mareotis? 5. Philo connecting the Essaioi and the Therapeutai? 6. Philo identifying the Essaioi as a Jewish sect? 7. Philo approving of the Therapeutai and condemning the worship of demigods and contemporary Egyptian religion? 8. Philo only being capable of approving 'Jewish' religious forms because he is Jewish If the Therapeutae are related to the Essenes by Philo the Jew and the Essenes are Jewish and Philo can only approve of Jewish sects, then the Therapeutae are necessarily ...

01-21-2013, 02:38 AM	#264
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Sounds compelling to me.

01-21-2013, 08:40 AM	#268
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	I do NOT accept imagination or speculative opinion as evidence at all. Philo wrote about the Essenes in the "Hypothetica" and "Every Good Man is Free" and specifically claimed that the Essenes Lived in Judea and were Jews. The claims of Philo about the Essenes are corroborated by Josephus and Pliny the Elder,who themselves are CONTEMPORARIES of the Essenes. There is NO claim by Philo in any writings that the Therapeteutae were Jews and that they lived in Judea. I am dealing with the actual writings. I no longer accept imagination as evidence which is a UNIVERSAL standard in any investigation.

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