pharoah

I'm somewhat bewildered about how he and the rest of the fallen angels (demons) fits within the scheme of things. Are they influencing our thoughts and actions? If so, what consequences (if any) does this have for free will?

gee

Pharoah;
Interesting subject!

I think some telling scripture on the subject is:
1. The portrait of Satan in Job
2. The portrait of Satan tempting Jesus in the desert
3. The talking snake in Genesis (ha ha)
4. (He's also mentioned as "murderer" we can't forget that horrible one)

He knows our nature and can condemn us before God ("the accuser"), but he cannot make us do anything. We do that on our own.

Generally, Christian teaching is that "temptation" isn't bad. Do you act on it? That's what counts.

I'll talk about any or all of these if you're interested.

gee

Javaman

This is a subject that not many Christians want to tackle. It tends to bring up too many unanswerable questions and unpleasant implications. Good luck, though.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

Satan is God's split personality kind of like in Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. The fallen angels are the split personalities of the angels. They had a big war in heaven, it was like how that guy in Fight Club was beating the shit out of himself. When you read the Bible it can be confusing when God is Dr. Jekyl or when he is Mr. Hyde [not for me, I'm the exception ] it can happen in the blink of an eye and it appears that God contradicts Hissself. This is why people shouldn't read the Bible, it upsets them when things are not spelled out like it was in kindergarten.
When the monks were copying the Bible they didn't bother putting footnotes or highlighting when God was God or when he "turned" into Satan because it was incredibly obvious to them [plus they were lazy, i don't blame them I guess... it was a lot of writing, remember this was before there were xerox machines], and they thought they'd be raptured at any time. The public were forbidden to read the Bible and really didn't know what the hell was going on [it's hard now days to imagine hordes of people not able to read, but it still happens!] unless the clergy told them.

gee has this correct:

You'll have a Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde angel on each shoulder [not really, it's just to illustrate it] one telling you to do it and vice versa.

I'm not a Christian, by the way, but people sometimes mistake me for one, in the real world

pharoah

Yes, please expound upon these subects if you please. BTW, do you know of any scripture that states or even implies that the talking snake was Satan? I haven't been able to find one.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

ser·pent (sûr'p?nt)
n.
1. A reptile of the order Serpentes; a snake.
2. often Serpent
In the Bible, the creature that tempted Eve.
Satan.





Genesis 3

1. Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, `You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
2. The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
4. The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
13. Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14. The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;

2 Corinthians 11

3. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Revelation 12

9. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
14. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
15. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
Revelation 20

2. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

I warned everybody that the Bible is confusing! Nobody ever listens

Kassiana

--Satan was originally an angel who did YHWH's bidding. He was transformed into an evil anti-God figure by Christians who misunderstood Judaism. He exists only in the minds of those who believe in him.

Of course, I am a Pagan theist, so that's my take on it. Christians undoubtedly see it differently.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

I'm stuck on the question of free will pharoah, to many choices...
Every time I think I've got the answer, five more choices buzz around.

Like when you kill a fly, and five more show up for the funeral...

Korangar

Ok, I'm no theist, but I read an interesting view of Satan awhile back.

In The Power of Myth , Joseph Campbell describes a Persian idea of Satan that I'd certainly never heard when I was a Christian. In this story, Satan loved God more than any other angel. Then God makes man and orders the angels to serve his new creation. Satan couldn't bring himself to do it. He could only serve God. His devotion was that strong. So that's why Satan was cast out. He wouldn't serve man. And Satan's eternal torment is that he is separated from the one he loves.

jemand

My take on it is that Lucifer was the most glorious of all the created beings, but chose to let that get to his head. He decided he was as important as God and ought to be able to enter the coucil of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When God didn't let him do that, after all, only God could talk about God-stuff, Lucifer got angry and rebelled. He deceived a bunch of angels and they folowed him instead of God, then when he lost the war in heaven, he was named Satan instead of Lucifer.

These fallen beings tempt humans now, but have no power to force them to give in to the temptation. However, in the Judgement day, Satan will be forced to pay the penalty for all the sins people commited but wouldn't have commited without his temptations. Satan will burn in Hell the longest of all, after all the other beings in hell have died. (hell isn't eternal-- only the results, non-existance of the wicked, are eternal).

That's my take on it.