spamandham

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, and am leaning on scholarship when I say multiple editors were involved.

I agree.

spamandham

Hi Don...

There seems to be a bit of cherry picking going on. I do agree that theological discussions will always involve earthly ideas, but that implies that any given earthly referent can reasonably be a spiritual analogy - depending on the context.

For example, if an author and his audience believed in a triune god composed of masculine, feminine, and asexual components (the mother/father/son theology so common in ancient times), and they believed that the asexual aspect represented salvation and promoted asceticism as a result, then 'born of a woman' need not refer to an earthly birth, but rather would be the theological statement that salvation came through the feminine nature of god. I'm not saying that's what is meant in this case, but merely pointing out that your truism works both ways.

Kapyong

Gday,

Really?
Who does Paul say the woman is ?

1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."[b]

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.



Paul says it is "Jerusalem above" that is our mother - the "free woman".

Paul clearly says it is to be "taken figuratively", that there are TWO covenants - one is earthly, the other is spiritual.

And he specifically contracts Jesus birth
"by the power of the spirit"
with the "ordinary way" of earthly birth.


Paul is clearly referring to a spiritual birth in the heavenly sphere.

K.

Kapyong

Gday,

Who was the woman?
According to Paul, it was apparently the
"Jerusalem above", not Mary.
(Why do you ignore that ?)

Did Paul mean it literally?
No, according to Paul, these things should be
"taken figuratively"

Paul says Jesus was born by the "power of the spirit" in contrast to the normal way.


Pardon?
Paul NEVER said "human nature".
That's just you changing the words to mean what YOU want, again.


K.

Kapyong

Gday,

Really?

Can you quote some examples from Paul that refer to a Jesus "of the seemingly recent past"?

I can't think of anything in authentic Paul that dates Jesus at all.


K.

Clivedurdle

Thought I would google Jerusalem and woman and one of the early hits is William Blake and Britannia!

http://www.thefourzoas.com/jerusalem..._plate_64.html

This xian religion is very strange in how it insists myth and story is real.

Clivedurdle

As Jezebal is to Rome/Babylon I assume Mary is to Jerusalem.

This link might seem off the wall, but maybe it is an example of actually how religious beliefs arise!

http://www.formerthings.com/domitian.htm

aa5874

There is really no need for all these complicated explanations about Jesus being "born of a woman".

Paul's Jesus is the post ascension Jesus of the Gospels born of a woman and the Holy Ghost, the son of God--Creator of heraven and earth.

The author of gLuke wrote that an angel explained to the very woman exactly how Jesus was to be born of a woman and the Holy Ghost.

We have transcripts of how it was done.

Luke 1.30-35. There it is. The woman was told of the procedure according to the transcripts.

Jesus was born of a woman and the Holy Ghost. Jesus had no human father. The Pauline writers must identify a human father for HJERS to claim that the Canonical Pauline Jesus was human.

The Pauline writers propound nothing different to the Gospels when they claim Jesus was born of a woman.

And likewise the Pauline writers propound nothing different to the Gospels when they claimed that Jesus was the son of God, the Creator of heaven and earth who was raised from the dead.

The Pauline writings are part of the Canon. The Pauline Jesus was the post-ascension GOD/MAN of the Canon.

spamandham

1 Cor 2:8

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

angelo

Whatever Paul wrote, it was a good two decades after the supposed facts, in a time where there were no recorders, only one in 30 was literate or less, all tales were oral and not written records. Besides all this, Paul met some of this jesus' followers who claimed to be witnesses, but if they were, how come they didn't know, or didn't convey to Paul what this Jesus was like, his stature, his appearance, what was he like ? It's as if the whole tale is made up.