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Old 10-25-2012, 12:48 AM   #51
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As Carrier stated "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman is "a failure of facts and logic.

Based on the OP, Ehrman argues that the Pauline writings let us know what the earliest Christian writer wrote of the early Christian community.

"Did Jesus Exist?" page 303.
Quote:
We not only know how Jesus started, we also know, with even greater certainty, what happened among his followers after he died. They began to establish communities of believers around the Mediterranean. We have our first glimpse of these communities in the writings of our earliest Christian author, Paul. And it is clear what these communities (and Paul) were like....
But at page 230 of the same "Did Jesus Exist?" the same Ehrman claimed "the earliest Christians did NOT think Jesus was God".

"Did Jesus Exist?" page 230.

Quote:
The earliest Christians did not think that Jesus was God
Ehrman statements about Paul and early Christians are contradictory. The earliest Christian did think that Jesus was God if the Pauline writings represesent the early Christian communities.

Romans 8:3 KJV----For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 Corinthians 1:9 KJV---God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


2 Corinthians 1:19 KJVFor[ the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

Galatians 2:20 KJV---I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live ; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ehrman's Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth is "a failure of facts and logics".
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:02 AM   #52
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Hi Tanya,

Good pop quiz and good point. It is hard to put ideological memes in chronological order because they often last for centuries and overlap with other memes.

Here are some images from the first pie-throwing movie, "The Ragtime Band" (Sennett, 1913).






1) Raymond Hatton
2) Raymond Hatton throwing pie
3) Reaction of Ford Sterling after being hit by pie
4) Reaction of audience including Mabel Normand (left-center-front).

If we had a movie of John baptizing Jesus, we would have a lot more evidence to go on.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanya View Post
Terrific guesses, Jay!! You were correct on two of them, and taught me something in the process! Wonderful.

In L'Autre Monde: ou les États et Empires de la Lune, published in 1657, Cyrano travels to the moon using rockets powered by firecrackers and meets the inhabitants.

That's a great guess, Jay, however, Cyrano was writing about the terrestrial moon, not the moons of Mars.

No, the correct answer here, was Jonathan Swift: Gulliver's Travels, written in 1726, in which the author describes, relatively accurately, the two moons of Mars, first observed by telescope in 1877 by USA astronomer Asaph Hall.

It is really question number two, that represents the point of this apparently foolish exercise.

This is where the rubber meets the road. Here is where we find out who are the mice, and who are the men, (and women) of this forum.

How many brilliant minds have discussed countless topics of interest here on BC&H, without realizing that the second century science fiction author, Lucian of Samosata, (not to be confused with the third century instructor of Arius, Lucian of Antioch, born in Samosata!) had written stories, derived from Homer, and others, about extraterrestrials fighting (on our moon) to gain control of Venus? What is of interest, here at BC&H is that this science fiction author, second century Lucian of Samosata, ALSO wrote about Christianity:

Quote:
They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.
Baron Munchhausen, Jay, represents a very good guess, since he did describe traveling to the moon on a canon ball.
Later, his name was changed, at least in the English speaking world, to Munchausen, and a famous syndrome in psychiatry, is named in his honor.

Yes, Micromegas, published in 1752, by Voltaire, is the novel about a giant extraterrestrial visitor from the star, Sirius, in our own galaxy, visiting Saturn.

Yes, you are correct, H.G. Wells published a story about Martians invading earth, in 1898, but the question remains, is he a relative of our own, G.A. Wells, famous "mythicist"?

Well, the main point here, was to attempt to respond to Andrew's posts, by illustrating that it is relatively unreliable to draw conclusions about chronological sequence of original ideas, based upon works of fiction.

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