Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 04-27-2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

We're still waiting for outhouse to tell us why he is so sure of what he claims to know.

I prefer anthropology and literature, over just scripture alone.

Most Mythers focus on text without exegesis and have a severe lack of historical knowledge of the time and place in which all this went down.

Knowledge is what makes the difference. My opinion just happens to follow the brightest minds in the field today. I dont have any one hero so to speak, but do follow Carrier quite a bit as he is one of he few that is hard to find a chink in his mental armor.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-27-2012, 10:58 AM

Maurice Casey spends a lot of time on the exorcisms in Mark, and he argues (largely based on underlying Aramaic sources he claims to be able to see underneath the Greek) that the exorcisms were among the very earliest traditions, and that some of the stories (according to Casey) are literally accurate accounts of true events. Casey does not think there was anything actually supernatural going on, of course. He argues that these were somatic episodes, and suggests that Capernaum may have been in the midst of a epidemic of imagined possessions - a kind of "mass hysteria." Casey cites the relatively modern example of hysterical paralysis in the 19th Century, when there was an epidemic of women becoming "paralyzed" and have to be "healed" by psychiatrists using hypnosis.

I'm still trying to get a handle on those stories myself. They're weird. I've been wondering if demonic possession/exorcism may have been a particularly regional phenomenon in northern Galilee. The Assyrians believed in a lot of that kind of thing (world is filled with good and evil spirits), and I wonder if these stories could indicate some kind of localized, highly provincial and archaic retention of old superstitions. I suspect this was a regional idiosyncrasy perhaps analogous to American rural pentecostal practices like speaking in tongues or drinking poison.

outhouse · 04-27-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Maurice Casey spends a lot of time on the exorcisms in Mark, and he argues (largely based on underlying Aramaic sources he claims to be able to see underneath the Greek) that the exorcisms were among the very earliest traditions, and that some of the stories (according to Casey) are literally accurate accounts of true events. Casey does not think there was anything actually supernatural going on, of course. He argues that these were somatic episodes, and suggests that Capernaum may have been in the midst of a epidemic of imagined possessions - a kind of "mass hysteria." Casey cites the relatively modern example of hysterical paralysis in the 19th Century, when there was an epidemic of women becoming "paralyzed" and have to be "healed" by psychiatrists using hypnosis.

I'm still trying to get a handle on those stories myself. They're weird. I've been wondering if demonic possession/exorcism may have been a particularly regional phenomenon in northern Galilee. The Assyrians believed in a lot of that kind of thing (world is filled with good and evil spirits), and I wonder if these stories could indicate some kind of localized, highly provincial and archaic retention of old superstitions. I suspect this was a regional idiosyncrasy perhaps analogous to American rural pentecostal practices like speaking in tongues or drinking poison.

I dont think it had anything to do with the geographic region of Galilee.

Even Paul who's roman background and heavy hellinization was pulling the same thing through the whole roman empire he traveled.

Iskander · 04-27-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is a book by Graham H. Twelftree on this subject:

There are course notes on the topic of Jesus the exorcist, with a wealth of notes, from Professor Barry Smith of Crandall University in Canada. There was quite a bit of interest in exorcism in contemporary Judaism - it was a demon haunted world, after all.

Thanks very much. I'll have a look at the notes and then perhaps come here again to ask more questions.

Anyway, you seem to confirm that it was a new concern in Judaism. I wonder why apparently Judaism was not interested in this aspect of ritual before hellenistic times and did not continue to be much interested afterwards, contrary to Christianity. But first I'll study the references you suggested.

Jesus was a standard Jewish exorcist using the same words that other Jewish exorcists used.

Unfortunately, exorcism is still used among Catholics, Muslims and others. It hasn’t gone away and it has not been made a criminal offence, shame!

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is a book by Graham H. Twelftree on this subject:

There are course notes on the topic of Jesus the exorcist, with a wealth of notes, from Professor Barry Smith of Crandall University in Canada. There was quite a bit of interest in exorcism in contemporary Judaism - it was a demon haunted world, after all.

Thanks very much. I'll have a look at the notes and then perhaps come here again to ask more questions.

Anyway, you seem to confirm that it was a new concern in Judaism. I wonder why apparently Judaism was not interested in this aspect of ritual before hellenistic times and did not continue to be much interested afterwards, contrary to Christianity. But first I'll study the references you suggested.

Jesus was a standard Jewish exorcist using the same words that other Jewish exorcists used.

What words were those?

aa5874 · 04-27-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Maurice Casey spends a lot of time on the exorcisms in Mark, and he argues (largely based on underlying Aramaic sources he claims to be able to see underneath the Greek) that the exorcisms were among the very earliest traditions, and that some of the stories (according to Casey) are literally accurate accounts of true events...

Please, tell us what is accurate about the story with the demons and the 2000 PIGS??

Ask Casey if there Were there 2000 demons--one for each pig???

Mark 5

Quote:

8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered , saying , My name is Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding .

12 And all the devils besought him, saying , Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave . And the unclean spirits went out , and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea , (they were about two thousand) and were choked in the sea...

It is just mind boggling what people here would say in order to historicise the Myth Fable called gMark.

Iskander · 04-27-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

So all in all it seems to me Christianity is much more "obsessed" with demons than Judaism, and I wonder whether Jesus was just a follower of then-current Jewish practice or an innovator on this.

false

jesus was a jew, he was just doing what every other traveling teacher healer worth his salts was doing. he wasnt the only one. there were many.

I think your confusing later exorcism mythology as being teh same in jesus time. it wasnt that way.

Yes, Geza Vermes says that much and more.

Geza Vermes, The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, Penguin books, 2004, page 3

Quote:

Similar orders are addressed to evil spirits in Mark 5:8: “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit” and in Matthew 8:32:“Go”. These are standard formulae used by Jewish exorcists, and the Greek terms correspond to the Hebrew tse (from the verb yarsa), and the Aramaic poq (from the verb npaq), signifying ‘depart’, ‘go’, or ‘come out’.
References to exorcism occur in the Dead Sea Scrolls too

In page 4, Vermes says

Quote:

The evangelists testify to Jesus using the normal Jewish exorcistic terminology of his age. ‘Come out’ may be Jesus’ own words

Iskander · 04-27-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Jesus was a standard Jewish exorcist using the same words that other Jewish exorcists used.

What words were those?

See #27

In addition Vermes says that the Babylonian Talmud contains the words which two renowned Tannaitic rabbis of the early second century AD , are said to have pronounced when expelling a named demon from a girl: ‘Ben Temalion, come out!

sotto voce · 04-27-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Jesus was a standard Jewish exorcist using the same words that other Jewish exorcists used.

What words were those?

See #27

In addition Vermes says that the Babylonian Talmud contains the words which two renowned Tannaitic rabbis of the early second century AD , are said to have pronounced when expelling a named demon from a girl: ‘Ben Temalion, come out!

Is that standard, or just common sense?

Iskander · 04-27-2012, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

See #27

In addition Vermes says that the Babylonian Talmud contains the words which two renowned Tannaitic rabbis of the early second century AD , are said to have pronounced when expelling a named demon from a girl: ‘Ben Temalion, come out!

Is that standard, or just common sense?

He says that Ben Temalion was a standard formula ---I suppose it means that it would be common sense to use them as prescribed .

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04-27-2012, 10:58 AM	#22
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Maurice Casey spends a lot of time on the exorcisms in Mark, and he argues (largely based on underlying Aramaic sources he claims to be able to see underneath the Greek) that the exorcisms were among the very earliest traditions, and that some of the stories (according to Casey) are literally accurate accounts of true events. Casey does not think there was anything actually supernatural going on, of course. He argues that these were somatic episodes, and suggests that Capernaum may have been in the midst of a epidemic of imagined possessions - a kind of "mass hysteria." Casey cites the relatively modern example of hysterical paralysis in the 19th Century, when there was an epidemic of women becoming "paralyzed" and have to be "healed" by psychiatrists using hypnosis. I'm still trying to get a handle on those stories myself. They're weird. I've been wondering if demonic possession/exorcism may have been a particularly regional phenomenon in northern Galilee. The Assyrians believed in a lot of that kind of thing (world is filled with good and evil spirits), and I wonder if these stories could indicate some kind of localized, highly provincial and archaic retention of old superstitions. I suspect this was a regional idiosyncrasy perhaps analogous to American rural pentecostal practices like speaking in tongues or drinking poison.

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