Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-06-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

This is rank eisegesis. Just as you did when you previously told us that Lk. 1:44 spoke of a baby leaping into Mary's womb [see here], you have woefully misread what Jn 1 is intent to say.

The "events" described in Jn 1:1-18 are NOT ascribed to Jesus but to the λόγος. Nor does John 1 say that the λόγος him/itself created anything, let alone heaven and earth. It speaks, just as Wisdom 7 does of Lady Wisdom, and the Rabbis of the Torah, of the λόγος as an instrument of creation ( πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ [ἕν ὃ γέγονεν]).

And as to the ancients regarding only supernatural beings as those who create (or were instrumental in bringing about) the kosmos, you might want to check your claim -- which smacks in its lack of being well informed of the one you made sometime ago about kings never being regarded as exorcists (see here) -- against what is asserted about Augustus in the Priene Inscription.

Jeffrey

What in the world are you talking about?

That you have no idea what you are talking about and that your continued reliance upon an English translation of a Greek text to tell us what a Greek text means proves it.

Quote:

Just look at John 1.

Quote:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and u]the Word was God[/u].

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I'd prefer to look at the text in the original GReek and not an antiquated and questionable English translation of it.

This, by the way, is:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. 2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. 3 πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

JESUS was before anything was made and without him nothing was made. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM.

This is rich coming as it does from someone who denies that Tacitus 18 speaks of Jesus because the word Christ and not Jesus appears there.

Please show me where the word Jesus appears in the Greek text of Jn 1:1-3., let alone in the entire prologue of Jn.

More importantly, "all things were made by him" is NOT what the Greek of Jn 1:3 says.

In fact, as you would know if you knew even the slightest bit of Greek, the translation you give of this text is not only bad; it's impossible.

δια never means "by"; it always means means "through" (see BDAG and LSJ).

And when it is used, as it is in Jn 1:3, with the Genitive of a thing (i.e,λόγος), it carries an instrumental sense (" by means of").

Moreover, it would bear this sense even if Jn 1:3 were speaking of Jesus.

For δια with the genitive of a person denotes agency. See Xenephon An. 2, 3, 17 διʼ ἑρμηνέως λέγειν; Menand., fgm. 245, 1 διʼ ἀνθρώπου σῴζειν; Achilles Tat. 7, 1, 3 διʼ ἐκείνου μαθεῖν; PMerton 5, 8 γεομετρηθῆναι διʼ αὐτοῦ) ῥηθὲν διὰ τοῦ προφήτου Mt 1:22; 2:15, 23; 4:14 and oft. γεγραμμένα διὰ τῶν προφητῶν Lk 18:31; cf. Ac 2:22; 10:36; 15:12 al. διʼ ἀνθρώπου by human agency Gal 1:1. διὰ Μωϋσέως through Moses (Jos., Ant. 7, 338)J 1:17; under Moses’ leadership Hb 3:16. διʼ ἀγγέλων by means of angels (Jos., Ant. 15, 136)Gal 3:19; Hb 2:2. πέμψας διὰ τ. μαθητῶν εἶπεν sent and said through his disciples Mt 11:2f.

So if anything is clear here, it is that your understanding of what Jn 1 says is woefully wrong, as are the conclusions about what NT writers believed that are drawn from this understanding.

So, by the way, is your claim that the ancients did not believe that human beings could be instruments (or instrumental) in the creation of the kosmos.

Jeffrey

kcdad · 12-06-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What in the world are you talking about?

That you have no idea what you are talking about and that your continued reliance upon an English translation of a Greek text to tell us what a Greek text means proves it.

Quote:

Just look at John 1.I'd prefer to look at the text in the original GReek and not an antiquated and questionable English translation of it.

This, by the way, is:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. 2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. 3 πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

JESUS was before anything was made and without him nothing was made. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM.

This is rich coming as it does from someone who denies that Tacitus 18 speaks of Jesus because the word Christ and not Jesus appears there.

Please show me where the word Jesus appears in the Greek text of Jn 1:1-3., let alone in the entire prologue of Jn.

More importantly, "all things were made by him" is NOT what the Greek of Jn 1:3 says.

In fact, as you would know if you knew even the slightest bit of Greek, the translation you give of this text is not only bad; it's impossible.

δια never means "by"; it always means means "through" (see BDAG and LSJ).

And when it is used, as it is in Jn 1:3, with the Genitive of a thing (i.e,λόγος), it carries an instrumental sense (" by means of").

Moreover, it would bear this sense even if Jn 1:3 were speaking of Jesus.

For δια with the genitive of a person denotes agency. See Xenephon An. 2, 3, 17 διʼ ἑρμηνέως λέγειν; Menand., fgm. 245, 1 διʼ ἀνθρώπου σῴζειν; Achilles Tat. 7, 1, 3 διʼ ἐκείνου μαθεῖν; PMerton 5, 8 γεομετρηθῆναι διʼ αὐτοῦ) ῥηθὲν διὰ τοῦ προφήτου Mt 1:22; 2:15, 23; 4:14 and oft. γεγραμμένα διὰ τῶν προφητῶν Lk 18:31; cf. Ac 2:22; 10:36; 15:12 al. διʼ ἀνθρώπου by human agency Gal 1:1. διὰ Μωϋσέως through Moses (Jos., Ant. 7, 338)J 1:17; under Moses’ leadership Hb 3:16. διʼ ἀγγέλων by means of angels (Jos., Ant. 15, 136)Gal 3:19; Hb 2:2. πέμψας διὰ τ. μαθητῶν εἶπεν sent and said through his disciples Mt 11:2f.

So if anything is clear here, it is that your understanding of what Jn 1 says is woefully wrong, as are the conclusions about what NT writers believed that are drawn from this understanding.

So, by the way, is your claim that the ancients did not believe that human beings could be instruments (or instrumental) in the creation of the kosmos.

Jeffrey

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jeffrey Gibson again.

aa5874 · 12-06-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What in the world are you talking about?

Just look at John 1.

It is extremely clear that in John 1 that the author believed or intended to be believed that Jesus existed as God and was before anything was created and was indeed the creator. Jesus was the WORD of GOD.

THE HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

JESUS was before anything was made and without him nothing was made. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM.

When is the first mention of Jesus in John's Gospel? Verse 17. The only other reference before that is to John the Baptizer. It appears the author was using John the Baptizers' appeal to sell his Gospel. (Maybe THAT is why it is called The Gospel according to John.)
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Jesus isn't God, according to John, but has "seen" him. What do you think he meant by saying that Jesus was at God's side? (ON God's side, maybe?) God certainly doesn't have sides... that would make him finite and limited.

Where do you get the notion that God does NOT have sides?

Jesus in the NT KNEW which SIDE he would be on.

Mt 26:64 -

Quote:

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

And Stephen in Acts claimed JESUS was on the RIGHT HAND SIDE OF GOD.

Acts 7.55-56

Quote:

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

The NT and Church writings are about a mythical entity called Jesus who claimed he would be sitting on the right hand of God. What absurdity.

The Jesus story is completely irrational, complete nonsense. JESUS was the WORD and was God, but he is also with God, and now he SITS on the RIGHT HAND of God. What nonsense.

Jesus could not have been real.

The HJ is a most complete SENSELESS proposition. A actual human Jesus just does not fit the NT and Church writings

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-06-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jeffrey Gibson again.

Uh ... what??:huh::huh:

Jeffrey

kcdad · 12-06-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jeffrey Gibson again.

Uh ... what??:huh::huh:

Jeffrey

I already gave you some and I can't again...

kcdad · 12-06-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Where do you get the notion that God does NOT have sides?

Sides... boundaries... limits...

If God is infinite spirit, there can be no sides...

aa5874 · 12-06-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Where do you get the notion that God does NOT have sides?

Sides... boundaries... limits...

If God is infinite spirit, there can be no sides...

Tell that to Jesus of the NT. He didn't know and he was described as God.

Now, if God is an infinite Spirit, then what was the nature of his Son?

Don't you now see that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition?

Jesus of the NT is probably one of the most absurd entity ever believed to be God if he was only human. He thought God had a right hand.

He had human flesh, yet walked on water.

He had human flesh, yet the 1st bishop of Rome saw his face shine like the sun.

Matthew 17:2 -

Quote:

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

I think it is time for the Church to apologise to the world for propagating probably the most ridiculous story about a God.

How in the world did the face of Jesus shine like the sun?

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

Jesus thought God had a right hand and taught his disciples that he would be resurrected in about 72 hours after his death.

Which Jew in Judea would deify such a character and ask him to forgive their sins and abandon the Laws of Moses? Could it be the same Peter who DENIED that he ever even knew Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost?

The HJ is just absurd.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-06-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Uh ... what??:huh::huh:

Jeffrey

I already gave you some and I can't again...

I have no idea what you are talking about. What was it that you say you gave me?

JG

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-06-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Sides... boundaries... limits...

If God is infinite spirit, there can be no sides...

Tell that to Jesus of the NT. He didn't know and he was described as God.

Now, if God is an infinite Spirit, then what was the nature of his Son?

Don't you now see that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition?

Jesus of the NT is probably one of the most absurd entity ever believed to be God if he was only human. He thought God had a right hand.

So did the author of Ps. 110 and therefore other Jews besides Jesus.

Jeffrey

aa5874 · 12-06-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Tell that to Jesus of the NT. He didn't know and he was described as God.

Now, if God is an infinite Spirit, then what was the nature of his Son?

Don't you now see that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition?

Jesus of the NT is probably one of the most absurd entity ever believed to be God if he was only human. He thought God had a right hand.

So did the author of Ps. 110 and therefore other Jews besides Jesus.

Jeffrey

The inventors of the Jesus stories therefore seem to have used the absurd beliefs of the Jews or the author of Psalms.

However, it would appear that Jesus of the NT, or his inventors, did not realize that Psalms 110.1 was metaphorical or allegorical.

Ps 110:1 -

Quote:

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

And this is Jesus, or his inventors, in gMatthew completely mis-reading Psalms 110.1. People will physically see Jesus on the right hand of God. What nonsense.

Mt 26:64 -

Quote:

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Even, the author of Acts made the same mistake with Stephen. The right hand of God in Psalms 110.1 is allergoric but physical in Acts. Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of God.

Acts 7.55-56

Quote:

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

God has no right hand. Psalms 110.1 is allegoric

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

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