Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 08-26-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

So why do you think he said "it is finished" if pissing off the Pharisees is not part of it? (hint, try crucifying yourself once

.

The author of Mark - the earliest of the canonical Gospels - has Jesus quoting from Psalm 22 in despair as his last words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

But by the time John rewrote the story, Jesus had been elevated to god status, and John didn't like the idea of his god crying out in despair, so he changed it.

HaRaAYaH · 08-26-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Sin is bullshit made up by those trying to force their will on other people. How is eating shellfish a sin? Why should we stone your wife or children for wearing mixed textiles? And how about the fact that the sabbath does not occur on Sunday but on Saturday and every Xian group i am aware of do not worship on the sabbath? it is nonsense. I suggest you travel down the entire 600 and see just how pious you are NOT. only 144000 of you get to go to heaven anyhow so its only those who can adhere to those 600 and not sin. Basically your fucked simply by being born into the modern world and they drape a polyester blanket over your cotton jammies.

Many of the laws you cite only apply to Jews which make up about 0.002% of the world population including easting shell fish and Shatnez (mixing linen and wool, which by the way you do not get the death penalty if you violate this commandment).

Chili · 08-26-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

So why do you think he said "it is finished" if pissing off the Pharisees is not part of it? (hint, try crucifying yourself once

.

The author of Mark - the earliest of the canonical Gospels - has Jesus quoting from Psalm 22 in despair as his last words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

But by the time John rewrote the story, Jesus had been elevated to god status, and John didn't like the idea of his god crying out in despair, so he changed it.

Because Mark is not prive to the metaphysics of crucifixion. All Mark did was launder Judaism out of it to set the stage for Catholicism in John. To be succinct, the tragedy of Matthew is converted to a comedy in Luke and John runs away with the spoils. Note that the rising action that leads to the crisis moment is much the same but the casual reader will never notice the difference between the two which in reality amounts to the difference between heaven and hell . . . for the simple reason that heaven cannot be conceived to exist without hell that must be also exposed when heaven on earth is presented.

sschlichter · 08-26-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

So why do you think he said "it is finished" if pissing off the Pharisees is not part of it? (hint, try crucifying yourself once

.

The author of Mark - the earliest of the canonical Gospels - has Jesus quoting from Psalm 22 in despair as his last words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

But by the time John rewrote the story, Jesus had been elevated to god status, and John didn't like the idea of his god crying out in despair, so he changed it.

He did not want God crying out in despair but his getting stripped, humiliated, and crucified was ok with him. That's pretty selective!

Chili · 08-26-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

The author of Mark - the earliest of the canonical Gospels - has Jesus quoting from Psalm 22 in despair as his last words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

But by the time John rewrote the story, Jesus had been elevated to god status, and John didn't like the idea of his god crying out in despair, so he changed it.

He did not want God crying out in despair but his getting stripped, humiliated, and crucified was ok with him. That's pretty selective!

Well, somebody has got to pull the old hide off of him lest a remant will be raised. Notice the manner of crucifixion wherin all senses were pierced and finally the cavity in the chest where 'thirst for fame' (tanha) fills the void was pierced to bleed intuit desire.

spamandham · 08-26-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

The author of Mark - the earliest of the canonical Gospels - has Jesus quoting from Psalm 22 in despair as his last words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

But by the time John rewrote the story, Jesus had been elevated to god status, and John didn't like the idea of his god crying out in despair, so he changed it.

He did not want God crying out in despair but his getting stripped, humiliated, and crucified was ok with him. That's pretty selective!

In what way is it selective? Even modern Christians have no problem with the idea of atonement through Jesus, but often cringe when they read his final words in Mark, for the same reason John probably did.

To show despair like that undermines the idea that Jesus knew the plan, whereas "it is finished" reaffirms that he knew his role.

sschlichter · 08-26-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

He did not want God crying out in despair but his getting stripped, humiliated, and crucified was ok with him. That's pretty selective!

In what way is it selective? Even modern Christians have no problem with the idea of atonement through Jesus, but often cringe when they read his final words in Mark, for the same reason John probably did.

To show despair like that undermines the idea that Jesus knew the plan, whereas "it is finished" reaffirms that he knew his role.

If this were true, would you expect to see evidence in the synoptics that jesus 'knew the plan'?

bacht · 08-26-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

In what way is it selective? Even modern Christians have no problem with the idea of atonement through Jesus, but often cringe when they read his final words in Mark, for the same reason John probably did.

To show despair like that undermines the idea that Jesus knew the plan, whereas "it is finished" reaffirms that he knew his role.

If this were true, would you expect to see evidence in the synoptics that jesus 'knew the plan'?

Don't know about the synoptics, but John has no doubt:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God;
all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

This Jesus knows everything.

Chili · 08-26-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

In what way is it selective? Even modern Christians have no problem with the idea of atonement through Jesus, but often cringe when they read his final words in Mark, for the same reason John probably did.

To show despair like that undermines the idea that Jesus knew the plan, whereas "it is finished" reaffirms that he knew his role.

If this were true, would you expect to see evidence in the synoptics that jesus 'knew the plan'?

The plan is intuitly ours but requires us to walk on water before we get into the promised land instead of parting it to get there. The requisite here is that we must be reborn of water and spirit which equals incipient from God via the Annunciation instead of fiery evangelist.

In "The Spire" Golding told us that it is as easy as eating and drinking.

spamandham · 08-26-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spam

To show despair like that undermines the idea that Jesus knew the plan, whereas "it is finished" reaffirms that he knew his role.

If this were true, would you expect to see evidence in the synoptics that jesus 'knew the plan'?

I would not expect a coherent story one way or the other across the board. I expect instead an evolving story with ever more fantastic tales and elevating Jesus' hero status at each step. These are hero biographies after all, and the tale grows taller with each retelling.

IMHO, this expectation is so strong, we could in principle determine the order in which Christian documents were penned based on this expectation - assuming we had a way to judge the relative levels of fantasy in them.

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