Steven Carr

Christian groups were eliminated early on?

Roman authorities would have read Paul's letter to the Romans and destroyed it if it contained anything not favourable?

davidstarlingm

They are evidence of possible dependence, but they do not suggest whether this dependence is literary (one plagiarized from the other account) or anecdotal (one borrowed from unrelated reports of the other event). That's what I mean when I say that the similarities are not evidence of literary dependence.

Huh? I'm sorry, I don't follow.

No one is presuming historicity. I'm merely pointing out that the null hypothesis (no Markan dependence on Philo) would still be consistent with some anecdotal similarities, because Philo could have borrowed third-party reports of the Passion.

I don't think anyone disputes the authorship or dating of the Flaccus account. The question of whether it is historically reliable is an entirely different one. Not being particularly familiar with the account, I don't know whether Philo was reporting on real events or simply describing a representative "feast of the fools" incident with borrowed reports from a variety of sources.

That is where we disagree. I have already pointed out:
• The names are not as similar as they seem. It's Karavas and Barabbas.
• Karavas is a derivative of karavi, a common Alexandrian term. Barabbas is derivative of Bar Abba, a common Hebrew surname. Corruptions of a name rarely fit the account they end up in, but both of these names fit perfectly.
• If the author of Mark borrowed details from Philo, he would have had no reason to include a random name, and even less reason to tack this name onto a secondary character.

There is very little reason to think that Karavas/Barabbas must have both come from the same source.

jgoodguy

Yes. It appears to me that a totalitarian government like Rome's would destroy any group or documents opposed to it?

I understand that after the orthodox allied with Constantine and became the official Roman religion, non orthodox groups and their writings were destroyed. Likewise if any Christian group especially a nationalistic Jewish Christian group opposed to Roman occupation were discovered by the Romans it would get whacked.

DCHindley

Just a note: Karavas is the English transliteration of Modern Greek pronunciation of KARABAS, where Greek "B" has a "v" sound. In the first century it would have a "b" sound.

To compare apples to oranges, then, folks should be comparing Karabas (based on a Greek word for a "ship") with Barabbas (from Aramaic Bar Abba "Son of (his) father"). Thus "Karabas/Barabbas". Those who continue to call the man Carabbas are duplicating the beta, when the standard Greek text of Philo's Flaccus has only one.

DCH

davidstarlingm

Carabba's is an awesome Italian restaurant.

Does anyone with more Greek knowledge than me know whether a double beta would have been pronounced differently than a single beta? The accent marks on the last alpha also seemed different; the Greek Mark had á and the Greek Philo had â.

I'm trying to get an idea of just how different/similar the two names actually are.

DCHindley

I agree. Used to go there when I traveled overnight for work. Unfortunately, my vampire wife cannot stand garlic, and I do not travel overnight anymore. Pity ...

The accents are dependent on Greek syllables. IIRC, each syllable has a consonant followed by a vowel or diphthong. A double consonant would likely be split between syllables. So, Ka-ra-bas (I think) vs. Ba-rab-bas (again, I think, as I haven't even thought about Greek syllables since 1978).

FWIW, I decided to actually break open a lexicon. Seems the Greek word KARABI = ship is of more recent derivation than the 1st century CE. It is not in Liddell & Scott. A ship or boat is variously NAUS or PLOION, a merchant ship is hOLKAS (our "hulk"), and that which belongs to a ship is NHIOS. My earlier suggestion is thus moot.

KARABOS can mean either a scarab beetle or a kind of prickly crab. Could be a nick-name for a irascible individual (e.g. Beetle Bailey or Barnacle Bill)?

However, KARA means the head, top or summit of something.

KARHBARHS means "heavy in the head." KARABAS may be a shortened form.

KARBANOS means the same as BARBAROS, outlandish, foreign.

I guess the man may have been either a well known "character" from town dragged from the local bar for the occasion, or a nick-name pun made up to mock the "head" of the Jews, or suggest that Agrippa I had a swelled head after being appointed king, or simply to call him a barbarian.

DCH

davidstarlingm

Thanks for the Greek exposition, DCH. That's helpful.

Personally, I find it far more likely that Philo could have incorporated several anecdotal reports (including generic details and a slightly corrupted name that sounded vaguely Greek) into his account than that Mark sloppily included a name from an account he dishonestly plagiarized.

Of course, I think simple coincidence is more likely than either of those options.

Toto

Mark clearly mined the Hebrew Scriptures for themes. Why would he not also mine Philo?

No one accuses Mark of dishonesty or plagiarism. He has creatively transformed his cultural heritage.

jgoodguy

aMark could have mined Philo, an unknown author whose works are lost, could have created it on his own, suggested by his culture, remembered it from a school he attended or suggested by a friend. Take your pick. The usefulness of Philo is to suggest that aMark was not unique and by implication not divinely inspired. It also suggests that aMark used literary creations not necessary historical events.

yalla

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Flaccus?match=el

Here, side by side, are the English and Greek versions of Philo's Flaccus.
The relevant section is VI.36.

"VI (36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas ...."

Note the spelling of Carabbas.