Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 12-03-2006, 05:39 PM

Everyone knows Jesus invented Communism!

JoshuaL88 · 12-03-2006, 06:27 PM

All I have to say is look at the Catholic Church (the original sect of Christians, and the one I deconverted from recently) and the way it governs. The only people who "vote" are the cardinals, and even then they say god influenced their "vote" for the pope (which might as well mean god chose him

). Then the pope turns around and tells the people, "Do this and this and, oh yeah, I'm infallible so don't even think about repealling it." Add on the *one true faith* and what you have is hardly what I would call a shining example of Western democracy...

BTW, I'm glad I've found this site. It's great I have rational/scientific people to talk to now, North Carolina isn't exactly a "freethinking" part of the US

End_of_days · 12-03-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshuaL88;3975730.

BTW, I'm glad I've found this site. It's great I have rational/scientific people to talk to now, North Carolina isn't exactly a "freethinking" part of the US

You said it there. I'm in eastern NC myself and I'm still trying to get over the time I (jokingly) told a girl I was Jewish and she exclaimed "You worship Satan?"

And what was it that tool Robert T. Lee has on his site? "Democracy originated in the mind of a person who had the deepest hatred for god"?

WishboneDawn · 12-04-2006, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthnAlln

I've posted on this on other threads. In Listen America Jerry Falwell said "God led in the development of [the American Constitution], and we have had 204 years of freedom as a result." (This was written in 1980.) He went on to say that, whether they know it or not, judges and politicians are in their positions by the will of God. And on and on in that vein. Of course, Falwell is a moron, but he's a moron with millions of supporters.

So I need to listen to Jerry Falwell and FOX news. Don't think so.

It's just, well I know you guys have a very strong and unfortunate brand of christianity done there but shit, I never fail to get surprised at some of the claims they make that you guys point out here. I'm so glad I'm on this side of the border.

Alethias · 12-04-2006, 07:29 AM

What I see in the Old Testament is a theocracy ruled by the Tribal Elders initially, with a Monarchy later. What I see in the New Testament is support for dictatorship--Jesus told his disciples to render unto ceasar that which is ceasar's. It's important for teh sheeples to obey. You could also make a case for communism from the New Testament. Acts documents a form of communal living with apostles and elders and deacons running the show.

Romans 13 says that god ordained whatever government is in charge. I guess that could mean that god created democracy. It also means that the Colonials that founded the democracy in the USA by revolting against the King were disobeying Gods law in doing so.

You can use religion to justify just about anything you want to feel good about.

Dryhad · 12-04-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alethias

What I see in the New Testament is support for dictatorship--Jesus told his disciples to render unto ceasar that which is ceasar's. It's important for teh sheeples to obey.

It's support for the current government, which at that time was a dictatorship. Render unto Ceasar means God never wanted you to disobey the government. It's basically church state separation. Give Ceasar what he wants, God doesn't care. But give God what he wants, Ceasar can't stop you.

J-D · 12-05-2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

There is not a shred of support for anything remotely resembling democracy anywhere in the Bible. What Anat presented was some rather grasping proof-texting. The main forms of government one finds in the Bible are absolute monarchy and theocracy. Moses and Peter were both theocrats, and the ideal sort of ruler was a good king in the Davidic dynasty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alethias

What I see in the Old Testament is a theocracy ruled by the Tribal Elders initially, with a Monarchy later.

’In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did that which was right in his own eyes.’ (Judges 17:6 and Judges 21:25)

’Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, … But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. … Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. … And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us’ (I Samuel 8:4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 18, 19)

lpetrich · 12-07-2006, 12:41 AM

The Book of Judges describes the interregnum between Moses and Joshua on the one side and the Israelite monarchy: Saul, David, Solomon, and their successors.

"Judges" is a traditional translation of Hebrew shofetim, but would "magistrates" be a better translation?

Did the various judges get into power by being able to attract a lot of followers?

The accounts of King Saul are rather confusing. Did he get into power by being appointed by the judge and prophet Samuel? Or did he get into power by attracting a lot of followers as a military leader?

And likewise with King David. Was he appointed by Samuel? Or appointed by Saul? In any case, he became king after Saul's death.

In any case, the Book of Judges describes the only female Israelite leader: Deborah. She was a prophetess who ruled alongside military leader Barak.

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12-03-2006, 05:39 PM	#21
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Everyone knows Jesus invented Communism!

12-03-2006, 06:27 PM	#22
JoshuaL88 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Vance AFB Posts: 75	All I have to say is look at the Catholic Church (the original sect of Christians, and the one I deconverted from recently) and the way it governs. The only people who "vote" are the cardinals, and even then they say god influenced their "vote" for the pope (which might as well mean god chose him ). Then the pope turns around and tells the people, "Do this and this and, oh yeah, I'm infallible so don't even think about repealling it." Add on the one true faith and what you have is hardly what I would call a shining example of Western democracy... BTW, I'm glad I've found this site. It's great I have rational/scientific people to talk to now, North Carolina isn't exactly a "freethinking" part of the US

12-04-2006, 07:29 AM	#25
Alethias Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 7,198	What I see in the Old Testament is a theocracy ruled by the Tribal Elders initially, with a Monarchy later. What I see in the New Testament is support for dictatorship--Jesus told his disciples to render unto ceasar that which is ceasar's. It's important for teh sheeples to obey. You could also make a case for communism from the New Testament. Acts documents a form of communal living with apostles and elders and deacons running the show. Romans 13 says that god ordained whatever government is in charge. I guess that could mean that god created democracy. It also means that the Colonials that founded the democracy in the USA by revolting against the King were disobeying Gods law in doing so. You can use religion to justify just about anything you want to feel good about.

12-07-2006, 12:41 AM	#28
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	The Book of Judges describes the interregnum between Moses and Joshua on the one side and the Israelite monarchy: Saul, David, Solomon, and their successors. "Judges" is a traditional translation of Hebrew shofetim, but would "magistrates" be a better translation? Did the various judges get into power by being able to attract a lot of followers? The accounts of King Saul are rather confusing. Did he get into power by being appointed by the judge and prophet Samuel? Or did he get into power by attracting a lot of followers as a military leader? And likewise with King David. Was he appointed by Samuel? Or appointed by Saul? In any case, he became king after Saul's death. In any case, the Book of Judges describes the only female Israelite leader: Deborah. She was a prophetess who ruled alongside military leader Barak.

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