Dave Hawkins

Have you read Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Vol. 1 and 2? Josh was a very tough skeptic and set out to disprove the Christian faith, but the evidence -- including evidence of fulfilled prophecy -- convinced him of the truth of Christianity. You owe it to yourself to read his books before discarding your faith. I will be writing on the wonders of Bible Prophecy at my blog ... http://afdave.wordpress.com ... soon. There are many spectacular ones which have been fulfilled.

BWE

Really? Which ones? Tyre?

spin

This seems to be an attempt of the blind leading the blind trying to lead someone else. afdave, when are you going to learn something about the fields you are flirting with?

(Just looked at the front page of your site with its "How to Convince A Skeptic That God Exists". Start with showing that you have an objective means yourself of getting knowledge from your god. Scientific cover-ups like those on your site already show that your god's coming off second best.)


spin

sky4it

Oatmelia:

Most of the prophetic predictions of Jesus Christ lie in the book of Isaiah and the Psalms, but certainly not all. Isaiah 53 is in fact a description of the life and suffering of Christ. (Past tense) Psalm 22:16-18 describes the piercing of Christ's hands and feet. Zechariah 13:6 describes the Lords description of his wounds in the house of his friends. The Lord himself, descibed John the Babtist as Elijah foretold from the book of Malachi. Old Testament law talks about the coming of Christ. Matthew 2:17-18 describe the slaughter of all children 2 years old and under by Herod, when Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Eygpt. This event was foretold by the prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:15. This fulfilled yet another prophecy about Jesus in Hosea 11:1 which says, and called my son out of Eygpt. Genesis 3:15 predicts that the seed of the woman, shall bruise the serpents head. That seed, being Christ is talked about numerously in other passages. There is much much more in Isaiah, the Psalms and many other places.

I noticed you were discussing Daniel. Most people believe that most of Daniel remains unfullfilled prophecy. (Some of it has some fullfillment in the times of the Greek and Persian empires) Many parts of Zechariah remain unfullfilled as well. In addition, I believe there is more to come out of the Psalms and other books as well. There is in fact many things to come from the book of Ezekial. Interesting is that Ezekiel, was the only prophet who was also called a Priest, which may in fact be indicative that some of the events he did in his life, may foreshadow the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. Ezekial is in fact a fascinating study.

I would simply recommend to you in your Christian quest, to not be confused by the endless books on Christianity. If you stick to reading the Bible mainly, it makes it less laborious. Personally, I think as long as you stay away from John Calvin you will do fine.

spin

This is an interestingly revealing post:
This is the tradition that sky4it believes, though sky4it supplies no reasoning for the belief. The Jewish tradition sees Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, the suffering servant.

We have hacked up this misguided damage to the text so often our archives bulge with the language analysis to show this is simply christian dogma. There is nothing at all about piercing in the text, but still fundies bleat piercing.

Yeah, John the Baptist is Elijah, right. That's credible isn't it?

More christian propaganda: "old testament". This is really a package of Jewish literature. It is not old in the sense of outmoded by the "new testament". It is not christian literature. It's just cultural theft.

Uh-huh. More supported claims, right? Rather pipe-dreams.

Of course, there was no massacre of the innocents. This would have been the sort of thing that the anti-Herod writer Josephus would have publicized loudly. Instead, it's just another of those historically unsupported stories, constructed out of misunderstandings of the Hebrew bible.

While we are depending on only biblical literature here, a reading of Luke precludes any trip to Egypt. He has Jesus born in Bethlehem, presented in the temple, 2:22 (after 66 days according to the law Lev 12:2-6), and then moved to Nazareth, 2:39.

I'm sure we can all see the logic here. Can't we?

We've seen these unconvincing attempts to reinterpret the bible too many times.

Another person who should read some scholarly commentaries on Daniel (yep, you know, from university professors from recognized universities).

Yes, we've seen what sky4it believes.



Reading gives people perspective. The more you read and the wider you read the better you'll understand things.


spin

-Jay-

The McDowell system of apologetics seems to be:

1) Produce a strawman representation of something (the Documentary Hypothesis is a current example in another thread).

2) Take a few superficially researched shots at the strawman from step 1.

3) Assert that something has been thoroughly refuted.

4) Handwave away any attempt by critics to explain what something really is.

5) Repeat as necessary.

To say that McDowell was a "tough skeptic" may be something of an overstatement. A brief discussion of his skepticism and, frankly, sharp-as-a-sack-of-wet-mice reasoning skills can be found here.

As I suggested before, oatmealia, make sure you do some homework on your sources.

regards,

NinJay

sky4it

spin:

1) usaid: but still fundies bleat piercing

Who SAID I WAS FUNDAMENTALIST? Duh duh duddhduddu dah What we got here is another wack right wing fundamentalist. Such brain power! Oh I see what we got here is another left wing liberal. That about sum up your stereotyping people, well then so will I.

2)usaid: The Jewish tradition sees Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, the suffering servant.

Yeah and they also believe that he wasnt because the lion has not layed down with the lamb yet.
blah blah blah blah, this is about as exciting and predictable as a game with a lousy ping pong player.

3)usaid: There is nothing at all about piercing in the text, but still fundies bleat piercing.

In fact the text in King James says "pierced my hands and my feet" King James is widely regarded as the most prolific translation of all time. King James literally did not want to get one word wrong. Out in my garage I have some Hebrew texts, but nevermind, I wouldnt bother with you on that anyway.

4)usaid: Yeah, John the Baptist is Elijah, right. That's credible isn't it?

In fact it could be increedddibbble. Of course, in Revelation it talks about somepeople dying twice, but you wouldnt know anything about that either.

5)usaid: This is really a package of Jewish literature. It is not old in the sense of outmoded by the "new

According to who? You? That's what I love about you lefties, you think if you say it enough times in the past tense, it will go away, instead of jumping up and biting you in the ass like it always does.

6)usaid: While we are depending on only biblical literature here, a reading of Luke precludes any trip to Egypt. He has Jesus born in Bethlehem, presented in the temple, 2:22 (after 66 days according to the law Lev 12:2-6), and then moved to Nazareth, 2:39.

So if Luke doesnt mention it it couldn't have happened? So, in your mind the trip couldnt have happened between presented to the temple and went to Nazareth? No, a reading of that does not 'PRECLUDE' a trip to eygpt.

7)usaid: We've seen these unconvincing attempts to reinterpret the bible too many times.

Who said I was trying to convince you of anything? I responded to Oatmealia because she had questions about Biblical prophecy. Reinterpret it? It's refined senen times in the fire. One does not reinterpret the bible, what one does is grow in understanding of it. Is this it: What we got here is another right wing, biblically, unconvincing, unscholoarly, illogical, re-interpreter? This sums up what you called me in your post.
You do understand you called me those things right? You know for a book that in your view is "literature" you sure seem to have a need to degrade anyone who talks about it. Could it be you just don't like what it says?


8)usaid: I'm sure we can all see the logic here. Can't we?

It works for me, sounds logical to me. So in your mind I am Jetro Bodine Clampett, newphew of uncle Jed? Does that make you Albert Einstien? Because you are logical, and I am not. That is what you just said.

9)usaid: Another person who should read some scholarly commentaries on Daniel

How do you know where or how much I have studied the Bible? Thus to degrade my knowledge of it, without knowing what I have studied is clueless.

10)usaid: Yes, we've seen what sky4it believes.

YEA, Horray for your team, you finally got one right. 1 out of 10 only gets you around 10 percent, you failed the class.

How about this: What we got here is another guy who thinks he bagged the bible, doesnt want nothing to do with it, and thinks he is a genius about it , even tho understanding it; remains on the miniscule level of understanding. That about sum you up?

Amaleq13

Given that spin's profile makes it quite clear he's been here far longer than yourself, it would certainly be wise to do some checking on what he has posted in the past before making accusations about his knowledge base.

Especially when doing so without checking can make one look exceedingly foolish if the individual has already established his linguistic knowledge base to be substantial.

Welcome to IIDB :wave:

Less bluster and more substantive discussion all around, if you please.


Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

Amaleq13

Please look up the meaning of the word "preclude". Your question suggests you don't understand it correctly.

Though it does make your follow up question rather amusing albeit unintentionally.

sky4it

amaleg: Usaid: it would certainly be wise to do some checking on what he has posted in the past before making accusations about his knowledge base.

You do understand he told me I lacked biblical knowledge right?

Here is what he said: Another person who should read some scholarly commentaries on Daniel (yep, you know, from university professors from recognized universities).

Now you just ATTACKED ME FOR WHAT I SAID TO HIM, AND HE DID TO ME PRECISELY WHAT YOU ACCUSED ME OF? Maybe you should tell your pals the same thing you told me?

ok I SEE YOU ARE THE MODERATOR, SO I WILL BEHAVE MYSELF, DARN. BUT I AM KIND A FUN AINT I AMALEG?