TomboyMom

Need some info to inform conversation I want to have with dear friend who is christian. Per christian doctrine, is the god of the old testament aka yahweh the same god that christians worship, who spawned Jesus, etc? So therefore the god that christians worship is the same god who went around in the old testament smiting everyone and occasionally everything in sight? thanks.

Rene

Babylon Sister

In the spirit of true christian solidarity: it depends on who you ask.

I know that's not an answer, but it has been my experience that that's what it boils down to.

Muad'Dib

Nearly all Christians you're likely to encounter in your area will affirm that they are indeed the same God.

Early on there was an offshoot of Christianity called Gnosticism that believed that the OT god who created the universe was a god of darkness and evil, and the NT god--one manifestation of which was the serpent in the garden, a good character to them--sent Jesus to redeem us from the Evil One (i.e., the OT god).

Although there are some groups who seem to be reviving this line of thought (not in a literal doctrinal way, but trying to affirm other aspects of gnostic philosophy), all mainstream churches will agree that the OT and NT Gods are the same. If you have to make a guess, guess that they're the same for your friend.

Your approach will probably get a different response depending on whether she's Catholic, liberal Protestant or an evangelical. I can't speak to the Catholic response. Liberal Protestants will likely agree with a lot of criticisms about the brutality of the OT, and may say something about the text being imperfectly preserved or confusingly written. Evangelicals will probably cite the book of Hebrews to argue that although the OT and NT gods are the same, the rules changed from one testament to the other. One useful question then, just to see how your friend thinks, is to ask how the old system of rules could possibly be appropriate even given the intention to change them in the future. Besides the ethical quandaries, one downside of that rather inefficient change is that we have Biblical records of political and religious genocide, text that offers support and precedent to groups like the Christian Identity and White Supremacist movements that would like to kill or subjugate everyone who believes differently.

Hope this helps.

ashe

The interesting thing is that people will say: "It is the same God" but they will ALSO say "But Jesus invalidates the old testament." ..... methinks they miss the point.

Family Man

My understanding of the issue is this: the OT god and the NT god are the same god. However, in "sacrificing" his only begotten son, God has created a new covenant with humanity. Thus, most of the demands of the OT god became irrelevant In a way, he became a kinder, gentler god -- and one that is curiously absent from his creation.

riverduck2003

They are indeed the same God. However both and more so than the NT version was the OT GOD so personalized and given human-like qualities such as envious and revengeful.

Jesus in his becoming the Christ have seen the reality of GOD who, by Christ's description was closer to an impersonal entity. Jesus by his christendom was as enlightened as Muhammad and Buddha. Jesus declared that the FATHER is inherent in all of matter and like or same as nature, the father's will is to nurture, heal, comfort, etc. He tried WITHOUT success to impart this knowledge to his disciples. That's how i gather it anyway from http://www.christsway.co.za which have letters that are purportedly from Jesus. I went there a skeptic but the messages were too genuine to ignore.

Javaman

Not wanting to be rude but, that has to be one of the most crackpot sites I've seen in awhile. I'd quote some passages from the letters but they're in PDF format and I'm lazy... plus I don't want to violate any copyrights. I must say that old JC has his work cut out for him as I was only visitor 1,620.

jfryejr

It depends on how literally they take the Bible and their religion. There are some "enlightened" xstians who view the OT as more of a story and less of doctrine. For example, they might say that Yaweh didn't send a plague and kill people, but that he was blamed for it because the people didn't understand disease. This basically indicates, to me, that the bible is just a collection of mythologies used to explain the continuous plight of a group of people. I've met xtians who, in large part, agree with that statement. They will still say Yaweh is in the OT and NT, just that he's misrepresented in the OT.

Then ask them how they are able to tell which parts are myth and which are "fact". I guarantee you'll either get the "Spirit guides me," "God isn't evil, therefore any evil act is a myth," or "God can't commit evil acts, therefore whatever he does by definition isn't evil, therefore good is relative to whatever god says/does." Stop the conversation here, turn around, and walk away...You've just lost 10 minutes you'll never get back again.

DamagedGoods

There are some fundies (usually Pentecostal types) that believe Jesus actually is/was the god of the OT; they don't buy into the Trinity concept.

In my experience these folks will tell you that the NT god is just as likely to whack somebody as the OT god was (seeing that it's the same being and all, just with a different set of rules in play or something). I've seen the story of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts chapter 5) cited as an example of this - God killed them because they didn't give some money they had promised to give. So the NT god apparently still gets all pissy if somebody disses him.

Presumably there's not as much smiting in the NT because it's a shorter book, or maybe Jesus talked himself into cutting people some more slack. Or something...it all seems very confusing to me now.