Freethought & Rationalism Archive

OldYgg · 10-13-2006, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

My point in giving my relationship with my dog is this: My dog knows me as I know God. My dog obeys me as I obey God. I.e. My dog knows enough about me in order to know how to obey me--I make it known. I know enough about God in order to obey Him--He makes it known. I need not know Him fully (he is incapable of comprehending those attrbiutes of mine that are not necessary for us to have a right relationship), my dog need not know me fully--in order to obey. I need not know God fully (I am incapable of comprehending those attrbiutes of His that are not necessary for us to have a right relationship--in order to obey Him. What's wrong with this analogy? When you say "But we have no garuntee that dogs think we are gods." You don't know how right you are and how much Scripture agrees with you on that fact. God does not have any guarantee that we think He is God--In fact, He knows that most of us deny His name. Of course "Occasionally dogs bite their owners"--we are constantly "biting" God. "and I'm sure to most owners it is a complete surprise that they were bitten"--but, here is where the analogy disappears--to God, nothing is a surprise. He knows our every thought, He knows our every action, even before we do it. He knows us more than we know ourselves. Which brings me right into my next point: God knows the fate of all, even before they bring their fate to completion.

Your dog knows you better then you know god. Your dog sees you, interacts with you on a daily basis and he knows he gets his food from you. You, work to get your food, can't see god, and while you might have day dreams of interacting with god - god does about as much as the average dead person, which is absolutely nothing.

"He knows that most of us deny His name." - Interesting - so most of the population equals the atheists in the world - or 2% of the population. I never knew that.

Interesting point: ""and I'm sure to most owners it is a complete surprise that they were bitten"--but, here is where the analogy disappears--to God, nothing is a surprise. He knows our every thought, He knows our every action, even before we do it. He knows us more than we know ourselves. Which brings me right into my next point: God knows the fate of all, even before they bring their fate to completion.""

So, I take it that you don't believe in free will and that everything is 'fated.' What a wonderful universe you live in. Tell you what, is there a point in living if everything that happens is fully known? What is exactly your point in doing anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

As an illustration: (1) One person, a non-Christian, now 30 yrs. old, will never choose to follow God, and will never be baptized--God already sees this in his future--God already knows that no matter how much He tries to save this man's life--he will not budge--but remain stubborn--thus sealing his own fate--God does not seal his fate--he has already done it. (2) Another person, a non-Christian, now 20 yrs. old, will choose to follow God, and will be baptized--God see this in his future and is very pleased. Now, both men are clearly sinners in need of salvation--but as the omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) God, He chooses to let His omniscience and omnipotence be proven by using these two attributes to the best of His ability while deciding what to do with these two men. He remains true to His word and wishes all to be saved (thus, the man who will allow God to save his life--by obeying God in Christian baptism--God does not lay a hand on). However, He already knows which man has chosen to follow Him, and which man has chosen to deny Him. Thus, by allowing the life, of the one whom He knows has already sealed his own fate, to be taken from him prematurely, He shows that He is God--without breaking His vow to seek and save the lost. No matter how much He seeks, no matter how much He tries to save--many will not budge--He knows just who those men are--and He shows (whom He knows will come to repentance and be saved) that He is God by making an example of the wicked (I repeat, the wicked who have already sealed their own lives). He HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER take the life of the innocent--instead, He uses the wicked (I repeat, who are wicked by their own choice despite God's efforts) to bring the saved to repentance. Only the guilty have been judged.

Nice soliloquy - but your god isn't very benevolent. He creates things that he knows he will send to hell to suffer forever. This is like having puppies and sending some to nice homes, letting some out to the street and saying - "I had this puppy born, but I know it is a bad puppy." and then commencing to remove its skin and torture it for the rest of its life. That entire paragraph is a bunch of crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

Another thing: as for II Kings 2:23-24. Where does it say that Yahweh took the lives of those 42 children.

Let's say it together: "My god's a great guy, but if he wants to do something horrible, that's his choice, he's sovereign and I'm his good little subject. In fact, I like to think of myself as Job."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

God wishes to save all--but the devil wishes to kill all. Thus, not all will be saved: in fact, the devil sadly claims the lives of most. Still, God knows every man's heart and thus, will judge justly every man. If Satan has a hold on a man's life, and God tries all in His power to save this man, it is still up to the man to let God save him or to remain with the devil, i.e. remain with death (possibly those children decided to remain with the devil even after God tried all in His ability to save them--without taking away their freewill to chose for themselves life or death--or possibly the devil got to them before God had the opportunity to save them in this life--but, knowing what would have become of them--is whether or not He admitted them into His eternal presence). Again, God knows everything--everything that is to become of a man: before the man either commits the crime or takes the path of righteousness. The innocent are NEVER taken from this life unto death--unless the devil takes his life--and even then God knows the man's heart--and knows what was to become of the man had Satan not prematurely claimed his life. God is all-powerful, but Satan, like man, has freewill to disobey his Creator--(and thus reaks havoc on mankind)--freewill is the only way that they can truly love Him, it is the only way that they can have a life--a life without freewill is worse than slavery, it is cold, hard, dead, machinery. The devil can only claim our physical bodies; God claims our spiritual bodies--based on whether or not we call unto His Son--it is ultimately our choice based on God's stipulations--Satan has no control over our souls.

So, let me get this straight. God wants to save everyone from him. The devil wants to kill everyone and God is going to kill everyone in the entire Earth when he's good and ready. I think neither of these guys are worth my loyalty. My loyalty is to humanity and to the future. Both things that I know exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

Also, look into the books: The Plight of Man and the Power of God by Lloyd-Jones, Martyn and My Sin, My Salvation: Scripture and Science Series by Thompson, Bert if you are truly insterested in the truth.

Yes, I cut out another bunch of hogwash you wrote about how great god is that he's going to create people he full well knows are going to hell.

I just love how you have ownership of the truth and have declared it to belong in those books.

I bet when thugs come to your house, break some windows and ask for money you just give it to them and say they are a great bunch of kids? What god (if it exists) is doing is no different.

Old Ygg

nightwyrm · 10-13-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

My point in giving my relationship with my dog is this: My dog knows me as I know God. My dog obeys me as I obey God. I.e. My dog knows enough about me in order to know how to obey me--I make it known. I know enough about God in order to obey Him--He makes it known. I need not know Him fully (he is incapable of comprehending those attrbiutes of mine that are not necessary for us to have a right relationship), my dog need not know me fully--in order to obey. I need not know God fully (I am incapable of comprehending those attrbiutes of His that are not necessary for us to have a right relationship--in order to obey Him. What's wrong with this analogy? When you say "But we have no garuntee that dogs think we are gods." You don't know how right you are and how much Scripture agrees with you on that fact. God does not have any guarantee that we think He is God--In fact, He knows that most of us deny His name. Of course "Occasionally dogs bite their owners"--we are constantly "biting" God. "and I'm sure to most owners it is a complete surprise that they were bitten"--but, here is where the analogy disappears--to God, nothing is a surprise. He knows our every thought, He knows our every action, even before we do it. He knows us more than we know ourselves. Which brings me right into my next point: God knows the fate of all, even before they bring their fate to completion.

As an illustration: (1) One person, a non-Christian, now 30 yrs. old, will never choose to follow God, and will never be baptized--God already sees this in his future--God already knows that no matter how much He tries to save this man's life--he will not budge--but remain stubborn--thus sealing his own fate--God does not seal his fate--he has already done it. (2) Another person, a non-Christian, now 20 yrs. old, will choose to follow God, and will be baptized--God see this in his future and is very pleased. Now, both men are clearly sinners in need of salvation--but as the omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) God, He chooses to let His omniscience and omnipotence be proven by using these two attributes to the best of His ability while deciding what to do with these two men. He remains true to His word and wishes all to be saved (thus, the man who will allow God to save his life--by obeying God in Christian baptism--God does not lay a hand on). However, He already knows which man has chosen to follow Him, and which man has chosen to deny Him. Thus, by allowing the life, of the one whom He knows has already sealed his own fate, to be taken from him prematurely, He shows that He is God--without breaking His vow to seek and save the lost. No matter how much He seeks, no matter how much He tries to save--many will not budge--He knows just who those men are--and He shows (whom He knows will come to repentance and be saved) that He is God by making an example of the wicked (I repeat, the wicked who have already sealed their own lives). He HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER take the life of the innocent--instead, He uses the wicked (I repeat, who are wicked by their own choice despite God's efforts) to bring the saved to repentance. Only the guilty have been judged.

Another thing: as for II Kings 2:23-24. Where does it say that Yahweh took the lives of those 42 children. It may seem to imply that, and if it be so, then they must be in the category I have explained as the wicked--God knows that they have already sealed their own fates. But, it says a bear mauled them--stating a fact of life ever since sin entered the world: suffering and death--which Adam chose to bring into the world through deliberately disobeying God's command and choosing to sin--and it was by the devil's deceit Eve did this. Therefore, it may have simply been the devil's work that these 42 children died, not God's--it's not in His nature to allow the innocent to die, unless the devil or the man himself chooses this fate.

God wishes to save all--but the devil wishes to kill all. Thus, not all will be saved: in fact, the devil sadly claims the lives of most. Still, God knows every man's heart and thus, will judge justly every man. If Satan has a hold on a man's life, and God tries all in His power to save this man, it is still up to the man to let God save him or to remain with the devil, i.e. remain with death (possibly those children decided to remain with the devil even after God tried all in His ability to save them--without taking away their freewill to chose for themselves life or death--or possibly the devil got to them before God had the opportunity to save them in this life--but, knowing what would have become of them--is whether or not He admitted them into His eternal presence). Again, God knows everything--everything that is to become of a man: before the man either commits the crime or takes the path of righteousness. The innocent are NEVER taken from this life unto death--unless the devil takes his life--and even then God knows the man's heart--and knows what was to become of the man had Satan not prematurely claimed his life. God is all-powerful, but Satan, like man, has freewill to disobey his Creator--(and thus reaks havoc on mankind)--freewill is the only way that they can truly love Him, it is the only way that they can have a life--a life without freewill is worse than slavery, it is cold, hard, dead, machinery. The devil can only claim our physical bodies; God claims our spiritual bodies--based on whether or not we call unto His Son--it is ultimately our choice based on God's stipulations--Satan has no control over our souls.

Furthermore, in the end, Satan will be destroyed and the wicked will receive their just reward--and vice versa. In his book, Is God Really Fair?: Letters to a Young Christian, Dick Dowsett writes, "Now God, according to Jesus, did not 'design' hell for people. God’s heart has always been set on bringing people to Himself. Nonetheless, Jesus, the Son of Man, warned that He Himself would say from His glorious throne, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and His angels' (Matthew 25:41)." The accountable are held into account based on his own understanding, his own conscience, and his own seeking and adhering to the truth. However, not "all roads lead to Rome"--Christ is the only Way, the only Truth, and the only Light--no one will come to the Father except through Him--and if they truly seek Him, they will find Him--this is a promise!--man is without excuse for not finding God and simply claiming heaven (like the Pharisees) by living a good life or following the Law. God is continually working to save those (by grace) who are willing to be saved. But keep in mind, it is a battle between good and evil, God and Satan. God is more powerful, but Satan has reign over the earth, and the power to destroy. Which is why God so urgently commands His followers to seek out and save the lost--before Satan helps the man seal his own fate. So, whose side are you on? Life or death? "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"--Joshua.

Also, look into the books: The Plight of Man and the Power of God by Lloyd-Jones, Martyn and My Sin, My Salvation: Scripture and Science Series by Thompson, Bert if you are truly insterested in the truth.

If you throw your dog into a fire pit for eternity, you'd be accused of animal abuse.

The Satan thing never made sense to me. If God was all powerful, why doesn't he just wipe Satan from existence? If Satan is part of God's plan, wouldn't that make God an accomplice to evil?

Jupofu · 10-15-2006, 07:21 PM

I just want to say one more thing: I DO believe in freewill. God created man with freewill--I have already stated this. Everyone is 'fated' only in the sense that WE MAKE our own fates--God simply knows what WE have already CHOSEN to do to ourselves. In fact, our very souls ride on this single fact: (1) God gave us freewill so that we may love Him as a child loves a father; otherwise, we would be hard, cold, machines--incapable of love; there is no other logical way that we can be capable of loving than for God to give us a choice whether or not to love; (2) God gave first man and first woman the CHOICE to eat and die or refrain and live forever; they knew the consequences, they knew God: He talked and walked with them in the garden (hence, they hid from Him after they sinned--they knew they did wrong, and they knew it was wrong before doing it); (3) thus, man CHOSE to die, but man is incapable of saving himself--we are not omnipotent; (4) But God is omnipotent (and guess what, God is pure light, in Him there is no darkness--He is holy--His nature will not allow Him to co-exist with sin--when man CHOSE sin, man CHOSE to give up his relationship with God--for God to be in the presence of sin would be a contradiction to His very nature--it can't be done--His nature won't allow it--which is why He was ONLY CAPABLE of creating good). Therefore, God did the only logical thing possible: He sent His Son to give man another CHOICE, the CHOICE to accept His Son and be saved from his first CHOICE, which was death. Due to the fact that God CANNOT co-habitat with sin (which is why the claim that He created evil is ridiculous), He knew that He would have to give OF HIMSELF in order to have a relationship with us. Thus, God gave us the ONLY SOLUTION: He GAVE us His Son. His Son became Jesus: both fully human and fully divine at the same time. His humanity made it possible for Him to take our sins upon Himself (even though He was sinless). And His divinity made it possible for Him to wash away our sins (even though we don't deserve this grace). There is no greater love than for a man to give up his own life for another. Christ gave up His life to save ours.

Again, the only reason there is a heaven and a hell is because Satan CHOSE to turn God's good into evil by CHOOSING to not do good (evil is good's antithesis). God allows suffering for the time being because it roots out the chaff from the wheat--God wants true followers (and EVERYONE has a CHOICE whether or not to follow Him); He does not want those who will, like Satan, try to overthrow Him--we would do so much harm to the universe if we had control over it--we would, do what we do with the earth--destroy everyone and everything--God tries to combat our sinful natures by JUSTLY rooting out the chaff: the destroyers of life. Who of us would allow a murderer to go free? None in his right mind, right? But leave us to our own devices, without God, and eventually all of us would go mad--like Satan who craved power--Satan couldn't control himself--let alone control man who was created in God's image. But man has authority over his own life: to give it to Satan or to give it to God. Since God made us in His image and likeness He has made it possible for us to know right from wrong (which is how Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to disobey--they had an image of God's knowledge and holiness--which we still have today) So we can become wheat: those who choose life. By accepting His Spirit to indwell us, as we call out to Him through baptism, we CHOOSE life--and the suffering we go through in this world will seem pale in comparison for what God has in store for His faithful children. Thankfully, unlike Satan, God is in control (of His perfect plan to save those who CHOOSE to be saved--not in control of our CHOICES)--and He is just: He does not allow the chaff to spiritually destroy the wheat, only physically--which is of no consequence. If you seek, you will find--that's God's promise. How is this not just? I sought, I found--I'm promised eternity in paradise.

This seems to be the problem for most:
Luke 8:4-15: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown."

"This is the meaning of the parable:
The seed is the word of God.
(1) Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
(2) Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing [suffering] they fall away.
(3) The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
(4) But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

Johnny Skeptic · 10-15-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

I just want to say one more thing: I DO believe in freewill. God created man with freewill--I have already stated this. Everyone is 'fated' only in the sense that WE MAKE our own fates--God simply knows what WE have already CHOSEN to do to ourselves. In fact, our very souls ride on this single fact: (1) God gave us freewill so that we may love Him as a child loves a father; otherwise, we would be hard, cold, machines--incapable of love; there is no other logical way that we can be capable of loving than for God to give us a choice whether or not to love; (2) God gave first man and first woman the CHOICE to eat and die or refrain and live forever; they knew the consequences, they knew God: He talked and walked with them in the garden (hence, they hid from Him after they sinned--they knew they did wrong, and they knew it was wrong before doing it); (3) thus, man CHOSE to die, but man is incapable of saving himself--we are not omnipotent; (4) But God is omnipotent (and guess what, God is pure light, in Him there is no darkness--He is holy--His nature will not allow Him to co-exist with sin--when man CHOSE sin, man CHOSE to give up his relationship with God--for God to be in the presence of sin would be a contradiction to His very nature--it can't be done--His nature won't allow it--which is why He was ONLY CAPABLE of creating good). Therefore, God did the only logical thing possible: He sent His Son to give man another CHOICE, the CHOICE to accept His Son and be saved from his first CHOICE, which was death. Due to the fact that God CANNOT co-habitat with sin (which is why the claim that He created evil is ridiculous), He knew that He would have to give OF HIMSELF in order to have a relationship with us. Thus, God gave us the ONLY SOLUTION: He GAVE us His Son. His Son became Jesus: both fully human and fully divine at the same time. His humanity made it possible for Him to take our sins upon Himself (even though He was sinless). And His divinity made it possible for Him to wash away our sins (even though we don't deserve this grace). There is no greater love than for a man to give up his own life for another. Christ gave up His life to save ours.

Again, the only reason there is a heaven and a hell is because Satan CHOSE to turn God's good into evil by CHOOSING to not do good (evil is good's antithesis). God allows suffering for the time being because it roots out the chaff from the wheat--God wants true followers (and EVERYONE has a CHOICE whether or not to follow Him); He does not want those who will, like Satan, try to overthrow Him--we would do so much harm to the universe if we had control over it--we would, do what we do with the earth--destroy everyone and everything--God tries to combat our sinful natures by JUSTLY rooting out the chaff: the destroyers of life. Who of us would allow a murderer to go free? None in his right mind, right? But leave us to our own devices, without God, and eventually all of us would go mad--like Satan who craved power--Satan couldn't control himself--let alone control man who was created in God's image. But man has authority over his own life: to give it to Satan or to give it to God. Since God made us in His image and likeness He has made it possible for us to know right from wrong (which is how Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to disobey--they had an image of God's knowledge and holiness--which we still have today) So we can become wheat: those who choose life. By accepting His Spirit to indwell us, as we call out to Him through baptism, we CHOOSE life--and the suffering we go through in this world will seem pale in comparison for what God has in store for His faithful children. Thankfully, unlike Satan, God is in control (of His perfect plan to save those who CHOOSE to be saved--not in control of our CHOICES)--and He is just: He does not allow the chaff to spiritually destroy the wheat, only physically--which is of no consequence. If you seek, you will find--that's God's promise. How is this not just? I sought, I found--I'm promised eternity in paradise.

This seems to be the problem for most:
Luke 8:4-15: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown."

"This is the meaning of the parable:
The seed is the word of God.
(1) Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
(2) Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing [suffering] they fall away.
(3) The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.
(4) But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

Just please tell us why God refuses to do everything that he can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible to to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell.

Biff the unclean · 10-15-2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

(4) But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

Except you don't actually have a noble and good heart. This stream of vitriol shows a contempt for humanity which whips out any possibility of a noble heart.
What you have is gullibility.
You haven’t produced a God, all you have done is told a story…. A petty, mean spirited and stupid story… about a God.
Why do you set yourself up to be the butt of jokes. Show some self respect.

Jupofu · 10-15-2006, 08:30 PM

GOD HAS DONE "everything that He can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible to to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell," but...

Again, God allows suffering (and death) for the time being because it roots out the chaff from the wheat. God wants true followers: those who love Him. He does not want those who will, like Satan, try to overthrow Him, and, like Satan, end up destroying everything God has made--this is NOT justice for those who choose to submit to God's absolute and absolutely good authority. He saves ALL who call on His name.

Even though He is in complete control (of the universe)...

GOD GAVE THE CHOICE (to life) TO HIS CHILDREN.
He can't force salvation on anyone--this would NOT be just.

Jupofu · 10-15-2006, 08:44 PM

Thanks Biff the unclean, but no. I do not have a contepmt for humanity, quite the opposite really. Jesus Himself called my heart good and noble, and I happen to believe Jesus, who are you compared to God? I do not have gullibility, I have the truth, skeptics have anything they want to believe despite the truth. True, I haven't produced a God, who am I to produce a God?: He (always) was, is, and is to come. This "story" is anything but petty, mean-spirited, and stupid: it is the wisdom of God, it is of great consequence, it is loving, full of compassion and grace. I have much self-respect, among those who are willing to hear and accept the truth; all the same, I humble myself before the Lord. As far as being the "butt of jokes," whatever, earthly jokes don't matter a bit to me, they will pass away, but my soul, that's forever.

All the same, I can clearly see where you are coming from. Had I not understood the Bible I too would consider it foolish and would consider those who follow God to be likewise foolish. Misunderstanding Scripture often time leads people to the conclusions that God is cruel and unjust. But, I repeat, this is a misunderstanding. Thank God I opened up my heart to be receptive to the truth which Scripture holds!

DaMan121 · 10-15-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Again, God allows suffering (and death) for the time being because it roots out the chaff from the wheat.

Quote:

I do not have a contepmt for humanity, quite the opposite really.

You dont see the contradiction here?

Biff the unclean · 10-15-2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jupofu

Thanks Biff the unclean, but no. I do not have a contepmt for humanity, quite the opposite really.

Sure you do, it’s over flowing in every blurb you post

Quote:

Jesus Himself called my heart good and noble, and I happen to believe Jesus, who are you compared to God? I do not have gullibility,

A two thousand year old fictional character told you this? That is so very gullible that I’m tempted to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge

Quote:

…I have the truth, skeptics have anything they want to believe despite the truth. True, I haven't produced a God, who am I to produce a God?:

Of course you can’t produce God. No one can. There is no God to produce. He’s a character in an old book. You don’t have the truth, you have a bunch of baloney

Quote:

He (always) was, is, and is to come. This "story" is anything but petty, mean-spirited, and stupid: it is the wisdom of God, it is of great consequence, it is loving, full of compassion and grace.

Pick up your bible and turn to the first book. God creates “the universe” but His creation is a joke. The author didn’t even know what the universe is. He thought it was some weird bell jar. That is stupid, very stupid. A few pages on God drowns every baby, every puppy, every kitten in the world. That’s mean-spirited. Jesus sends billions of people to the pit of Hell for eternity, no love, no compassion.

Quote:

I have much self-respect, among those who are willing to hear and accept the truth; all the same, I humble myself before the Lord. As far as being the "butt of jokes," whatever, earthly jokes don't matter a bit to me, they will pass away, but my soul, that's forever.

You don’t have a soul. When you die, that’s it.

Quote:

All the same, I can clearly see where you are coming from. Had I not understood the Bible I too would consider it foolish and would consider those who follow God to be likewise foolish.

You have that backwards. Understanding the bible is the fast track to Atheism.

Quote:

Misunderstanding Scripture often time leads people to the conclusions that God is cruel and unjust. But, I repeat, this is a misunderstanding. Thank God I opened up my heart to be receptive to the truth which Scripture holds!

So you approve of drowning every baby, every puppy, every kitten in the world. You approve of genocide. That’s a pretty disgusting position to take if you ask me.

Jupofu · 10-16-2006, 10:59 AM

No one can see how every person who denies God has a contempt for their Creator? Which is much worse than a contempt for the created--which I am not claiming to have in the least. All the same, how can any of you call what God does as injustice when His children unjustly deny Him, or like Satan, act as though they are better than Him, as if they created themselves, or came from nothing--what nihilism, what complete and utter nothingness--now that's a way to live. When in reality, God gave us life, He gave us a purpose. He saves those who ask. Only those who have a contempt for their Creator are denied eternal paradise--and this is justice.

There is no contradiction in a God who allows suffering of the guilty in order to save those who deserve heaven. (We put men in jail and sentence them to death for less than what man has done--crucified His Son, and does--continually deny His name, to God.) Therefore, I believe this is called...yet again... justice. Furthermore, the guilty are rooted out because eventually the guilty will cause nothing but harm to themselves and to others--they deserve punishment. This is called compassion--for the innocent. If you call God a contradiction, then you call justice and compassion a contradiction. You might as well let all convicted murderers, thieves, and the like, go free to reap havoc on all of mankind--this, I call a contempt for humanity.

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10-15-2006, 07:21 PM	#23
Jupofu Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 35	I just want to say one more thing: I DO believe in freewill. God created man with freewill--I have already stated this. Everyone is 'fated' only in the sense that WE MAKE our own fates--God simply knows what WE have already CHOSEN to do to ourselves. In fact, our very souls ride on this single fact: (1) God gave us freewill so that we may love Him as a child loves a father; otherwise, we would be hard, cold, machines--incapable of love; there is no other logical way that we can be capable of loving than for God to give us a choice whether or not to love; (2) God gave first man and first woman the CHOICE to eat and die or refrain and live forever; they knew the consequences, they knew God: He talked and walked with them in the garden (hence, they hid from Him after they sinned--they knew they did wrong, and they knew it was wrong before doing it); (3) thus, man CHOSE to die, but man is incapable of saving himself--we are not omnipotent; (4) But God is omnipotent (and guess what, God is pure light, in Him there is no darkness--He is holy--His nature will not allow Him to co-exist with sin--when man CHOSE sin, man CHOSE to give up his relationship with God--for God to be in the presence of sin would be a contradiction to His very nature--it can't be done--His nature won't allow it--which is why He was ONLY CAPABLE of creating good). Therefore, God did the only logical thing possible: He sent His Son to give man another CHOICE, the CHOICE to accept His Son and be saved from his first CHOICE, which was death. Due to the fact that God CANNOT co-habitat with sin (which is why the claim that He created evil is ridiculous), He knew that He would have to give OF HIMSELF in order to have a relationship with us. Thus, God gave us the ONLY SOLUTION: He GAVE us His Son. His Son became Jesus: both fully human and fully divine at the same time. His humanity made it possible for Him to take our sins upon Himself (even though He was sinless). And His divinity made it possible for Him to wash away our sins (even though we don't deserve this grace). There is no greater love than for a man to give up his own life for another. Christ gave up His life to save ours. Again, the only reason there is a heaven and a hell is because Satan CHOSE to turn God's good into evil by CHOOSING to not do good (evil is good's antithesis). God allows suffering for the time being because it roots out the chaff from the wheat--God wants true followers (and EVERYONE has a CHOICE whether or not to follow Him); He does not want those who will, like Satan, try to overthrow Him--we would do so much harm to the universe if we had control over it--we would, do what we do with the earth--destroy everyone and everything--God tries to combat our sinful natures by JUSTLY rooting out the chaff: the destroyers of life. Who of us would allow a murderer to go free? None in his right mind, right? But leave us to our own devices, without God, and eventually all of us would go mad--like Satan who craved power--Satan couldn't control himself--let alone control man who was created in God's image. But man has authority over his own life: to give it to Satan or to give it to God. Since God made us in His image and likeness He has made it possible for us to know right from wrong (which is how Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to disobey--they had an image of God's knowledge and holiness--which we still have today) So we can become wheat: those who choose life. By accepting His Spirit to indwell us, as we call out to Him through baptism, we CHOOSE life--and the suffering we go through in this world will seem pale in comparison for what God has in store for His faithful children. Thankfully, unlike Satan, God is in control (of His perfect plan to save those who CHOOSE to be saved--not in control of our CHOICES)--and He is just: He does not allow the chaff to spiritually destroy the wheat, only physically--which is of no consequence. If you seek, you will find--that's God's promise. How is this not just? I sought, I found--I'm promised eternity in paradise. This seems to be the problem for most: Luke 8:4-15: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown." "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. (1) Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. (2) Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing [suffering] they fall away. (3) The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. (4) But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."

10-15-2006, 08:30 PM	#26
Jupofu Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 35	GOD HAS DONE "everything that He can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible to to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell," but... Again, God allows suffering (and death) for the time being because it roots out the chaff from the wheat. God wants true followers: those who love Him. He does not want those who will, like Satan, try to overthrow Him, and, like Satan, end up destroying everything God has made--this is NOT justice for those who choose to submit to God's absolute and absolutely good authority. He saves ALL who call on His name. Even though He is in complete control (of the universe)... GOD GAVE THE CHOICE (to life) TO HIS CHILDREN. He can't force salvation on anyone--this would NOT be just.

10-15-2006, 08:44 PM	#27
Jupofu Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 35	Thanks Biff the unclean, but no. I do not have a contepmt for humanity, quite the opposite really. Jesus Himself called my heart good and noble, and I happen to believe Jesus, who are you compared to God? I do not have gullibility, I have the truth, skeptics have anything they want to believe despite the truth. True, I haven't produced a God, who am I to produce a God?: He (always) was, is, and is to come. This "story" is anything but petty, mean-spirited, and stupid: it is the wisdom of God, it is of great consequence, it is loving, full of compassion and grace. I have much self-respect, among those who are willing to hear and accept the truth; all the same, I humble myself before the Lord. As far as being the "butt of jokes," whatever, earthly jokes don't matter a bit to me, they will pass away, but my soul, that's forever. All the same, I can clearly see where you are coming from. Had I not understood the Bible I too would consider it foolish and would consider those who follow God to be likewise foolish. Misunderstanding Scripture often time leads people to the conclusions that God is cruel and unjust. But, I repeat, this is a misunderstanding. Thank God I opened up my heart to be receptive to the truth which Scripture holds!

10-16-2006, 10:59 AM	#30
Jupofu Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 35	No one can see how every person who denies God has a contempt for their Creator? Which is much worse than a contempt for the created--which I am not claiming to have in the least. All the same, how can any of you call what God does as injustice when His children unjustly deny Him, or like Satan, act as though they are better than Him, as if they created themselves, or came from nothing--what nihilism, what complete and utter nothingness--now that's a way to live. When in reality, God gave us life, He gave us a purpose. He saves those who ask. Only those who have a contempt for their Creator are denied eternal paradise--and this is justice. There is no contradiction in a God who allows suffering of the guilty in order to save those who deserve heaven. (We put men in jail and sentence them to death for less than what man has done--crucified His Son, and does--continually deny His name, to God.) Therefore, I believe this is called...yet again... justice. Furthermore, the guilty are rooted out because eventually the guilty will cause nothing but harm to themselves and to others--they deserve punishment. This is called compassion--for the innocent. If you call God a contradiction, then you call justice and compassion a contradiction. You might as well let all convicted murderers, thieves, and the like, go free to reap havoc on all of mankind--this, I call a contempt for humanity.

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