Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vivo · 04-20-2007, 06:33 PM

If someone claims to have spoken with God, they're delusional, crazy, not all there, coo-coo, etc.

Draconis · 04-20-2007, 06:40 PM

So what does God say to these people who claim to have heard from him - "hello" would be a start (?)

Tubby Lardmore · 04-20-2007, 06:49 PM

I am reading a biography of the East Indian mathematician Ramanujan. It says:

Quote:

Ramanujan was a man who grew up praying to stone deities; who for most of his life took counsel from a family goddess, declaring it was she to whom his mathematical insights were owed... He frequented local temples... He regularly invoked the name of his family deity, the goddess Namagiri of Namakkal, and based his actions on what he took to be her wishes. He attributed to the gods his ability to navigate through the shoals of mathematical texts written in foreign languages... It was goddess Namagiri, he would tell his friends, to whom he owed his mathematical gifts. Namagiri would write the equations on his tongue. Namagiri would bestow mathematical insights in his dreams.

As I was reading that part of the book, I found myself wondering which of these three possibilities would appeal most to a believer in the Judeo-Christian deity...

(i) Ramanujan came up with his ideas using his own mind/brain, and falsely attributed them to the goddess.

(ii) The goddess Namagiri is a valid deity, in addition to the biblical God.

(iii) Though Ramanujan thought he was hearing from the goddess, he was actually hearing from the biblical God, but due to his upbringing he falsely attributed the Voice to his family goddess.

Draconis · 04-20-2007, 07:00 PM

I think if you were coming up with stuff that nobody could explain, the nearest deity would do.

Gawen · 04-20-2007, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnmathan

If not, I challenge you to produce this air-tight case that proves the negative statement "there cannot be a god, or anything we might mistake for one."

The statement 'there cannot be a god' is clearly not an empirical statement, but a conceptual one. Anyone who would make such a claim would make it by arguing that a particular concept of god contains contradictions, and so is meaningless. For example, to believe that 'some squares are circular' seems to be a logical contradiction. Circles and squares are defined so as to imply that circles can't be square and squares can't be circles.

This is like the classic Christian retort that to say a belief in no God requires more faith than the belief in a God requires less faith.

But one who has come to the conclusion "there cannot be a god" is not an act of faith in the same sense that it is an act of faith to believe in the Incarnation, the Trinity, transubstantiation, or the Virgin Birth. The first three articles of faith seem to be on par with believing in round squares; for, they require belief in logical contradictions. Virgin births we now know are possible in some animals, but the technology for the implantation of fertilized human eggs did not exist two thousand years ago. But the belief in the Virgin birth involves belief that God miraculously impregnated Mary with Himself. Such a belief seems also to defy logic. All arguments regarding these articles of faith are quite distinct.

To defend these articles of faith, the best one can hope for is to show that they cannot be shown to be impossible and this also involves religious experiences. However, the consequence of arguing that logical contradictions may nevertheless be true, seems undesirable. Such a defense requires the abandonment of the very logical principles required to make any argument and is therefore self-annihilating.

Let's take this a bit farther. The statement 'there is no God' is quite different from the claim that "there can't be a god". The latter makes a claim regarding possibility; the former is an actuality claim. I doubt that there are many theists or Christian apologists who would claim that all their faith amounts to, a belief in the possibility of this or that. One can believe there is no God because there can't be a god, but one might also disbelieve in God while admitting the possibility of God.

Disbelief in God is analogous to disbelief in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Yet, those who believe in Bigfoot and Nessie, for example, aren't known for claiming they believe out of faith. To say you have faith in Bigfoot or faith in Nessie sounds ludicrous. Believers in Bigfoot think there is good evidence for their belief. Disbelievers argue that the evidence is not strong at all and does not deserve assent to the proposition that Bigfoot exists. Disbelievers in Bigfoot do not disbelieve as an act of faith, but because the evidence is not persuasive.

Belief in God, on the other hand, could be either an act of faith or a belief based on conclusions from evidence and argument. If the theistic belief is an act of faith then the one holding the belief either thinks the evidence against belief outweighs or equals the evidence for belief, or the belief is held without regard for evidence at all. Otherwise, the belief is not an act of faith, but of belief that the evidence is stronger for belief than against.

I wish X to be true, so I know X to be true.
Or, I know X to be true, I wish X to be true, I have had an experience of X, therefore X is true beyond all doubt.
A mother who "knows" her missing son is alive and well is experiencing faith. There is no theoretical or evidential basis to assume that religious experiences are anything more than this type of intense emotionally based wishful thinking. Religious experience is largely about faith in the untestable, thus we cannot demonstrate that the faith or the experience is incorrect or correct. However, the case of the mother is still relevant because it demonstrates that the experience of faith is often caused by the emotional need to believe and in cases where faith-based beliefs are testable, these emotional convictions show no correspondence to reality. Thus, we can demonstrate that the experience of faith is not a source of knowledge.

Faith is an everyday aspect of psychological reality. An adherent of faith would most likely respond, "Well, that's not the 'real' faith that I'm talking about. My faith is special.". This line of reasoning amounts to nothing more than the mother of the missing son saying, "I know other mothers just want to believe their sons are alive, but know my son really is."

It is also my opinion that religious experiences are miracles. Please don't get me going on miracles.

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Here's something on the existence of God beyond faith. What if you have a personal experience that to you seems real in which God actually speaks with you (in a vision or some mental state), and that's your new reference that God exists?

Then what if that experience is consistent with your previous belief system, such as the Bible, where God is described, for instance, and he appears precisely that way? Others, outside your experience, of course, have no choice but to think your crazy or on drugs, but they'd think that about anybody making that claim whether it was true or not, so it doesn't matter. Even so, subjectively speaking, the only reason others don't believe is because they haven't had similar experiences.

At any rate, if you believe your experience is real then you have no choice but to believe God is real. The Bible prophesied some miracles would start to take place close to when the 1000-year millennium begins, first among the chosen ones, so once those things start to really happen a group of people on the planet will have their "confirmation" that God really exists before many others, who will get their confirmation at the very least, at Armageddon much like those at the time of Noah's flood.

So it's an interesting topic for the "claivoyant" who have supernatural experiences they believe consistent with God. For instance, since I believe in my mind that my experience was real and it is consistent with what the Bible claims would happen I have no doubt that God is real, and as such, that question of "Does God Exist?" no longer applies to me and/or others with personal contact.

LG47

Are you decyphering TongueSpeaker's babbling?

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnmathan

That offers a possible explaination for one class of possible divine contact. I'm sorry, but some of mine have been during meditation (without the use of drugs of any kind or deprivation) and while engaged in otherwise normal waking activity. I have never been asked to do anything dangerous, nor even suspect, though a few seemingly minor tasks had bigger results than I ever guessed. By the apparent opinion of most people here, I'm delusional. But how did my delusions direct me to do simple things that helped both me and others in bigger ways than the task seemed to promise? I can't believe in that many coincidences.

Question: two groups of people who say they have spoken to god (any god/dess). One group say they were told about the coming end of the world, which they used to maybe write a book and make money on the lecture circuit. The other were told about some small way they could help someone, or how to fix something in their own lives. Do you see these as two different types of phenomina, are they all just delusional, or something else?

Do you have verifiable examples?

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Good question. My only response is that it is consistent with the Biblical situation.

How convenient. How do you explain the similarly convincing experiences of people with different gods?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

No. But since there are demon angels who do have the power to influence and possess people, that would be my impression. God would not tell her to do something like that, but a demon would.

Ooh, xdemons, and who or what created the xdemons? Who or what allows their existence? Who or what gives them the ability to deceive? Why doesn't your xgod intervene and tell these poor souls to not be deceived by these very convincing mimics?

In any case, how was she supposed to know. God tells people to do all sorts of things, some of them rather horrible? How is she supposed to know if this is one of those things or some demon xgod has empowered to deceive her for whatever reasons xgod has?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Not mistaken, deceived.

See above and answer who or what allows that deception. For the children's sake, they not being deceived, they are innocent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Well, in my case, there's a Biblical precedent and accompanying physical evidence (I have pictures).

Ooooh pictures, I love pictures. Are you going to post them and certify under penalty of perjury they are true and correct and have not been manipulated in any way? Swear to xgod?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Well, my experience is a little different. It sort of coincides with a logical situation where God might speak directly with me. Each experience has to be taken separately.

Care to explain in detail? With the pictures, 8x10s, with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on the back explaining what the circles and arrows mean?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

I hear you. And I certainly would immediately presume that I was hallucinating, hypnotized or delusional hadn't there been other things consistent with the timing of my experience that convinces me it's real, things prophesied in the Bible centuries before that are coming true.
LG47

Again, care to cite examples? With all the usual accoutrements?

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

You talk to god, too?

Did he tell you anything about Lars being the new messiah?

I have meditation experiences, too, but not of anyone talking to me, more a deep feeling of unity with life, the universe and everything.

That was, of course, what I had been led to expect. Suggestibility can be a powerful thing - especially to people who don't think they are subject to it.

http://www.suggestibility.org/index.htm

David B

I used to meditate, but it was so excruciatingly boring. Especially when my parts started falling asleep.

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Well, I think mine is a little different. I'm actually mentioned and described rather specifically in the Bible. I don't think anyone else can claim that.

LG47

Really? Care to expand on that? Chapter and verse?

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04-20-2007, 06:33 PM	#21
Vivo Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 379	If someone claims to have spoken with God, they're delusional, crazy, not all there, coo-coo, etc.

04-20-2007, 06:40 PM	#22
Draconis Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 3,165	So what does God say to these people who claim to have heard from him - "hello" would be a start (?)

04-20-2007, 07:00 PM	#24
Draconis Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 3,165	I think if you were coming up with stuff that nobody could explain, the nearest deity would do.

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