David B

Hmm. How many other 2000+ year old groups like Jews survive with their 2000+ year old beliefs more or less intact?

Monotheism seems to me an effective survival mechanism.

David B (doesn't see his and mountainman's posts as entailing anything contradictory)

Malachi151

Judaism probably would not be around today if Christianity had not taken over the empire. They survived in the shadow of their spawn.

Clivedurdle

I am positing a direct link because I think not only did dictator minded people copy a good idea but that actual links between these appearances exist - Persia and Greece and Rome were at each other for centuries.

Could someone show me examples of Greek monotheism and why they might not have got it from Persia?

I think this dualism concept is being overplayed. One true God is definitely from Zarathuster - maybe Darius formalised it? Once you posit a central point, an opposite is logical, it is a choice if it is a point in the centre of a circle or two points facing each other.

Is Monotheism a mathematical concept - who invented the idea of a central point?

Clivedurdle

Smith does not discuss the influence of the Persians and thus probably misses the plot. (Missing one of the greatest empires on the planet....hmmmm)

I favour an import export co-evolutionary view of the spread of ideas, and if one people conquers another (by the rivers of Babylon?) I expect significant changes.

Smith even notes Cyrus but fails to ask what did Cyrus import into Judaism? Is Duetero - Isaiah a result of an interaction of monotheistic ideas? Was it written in Babylon? Is there evidence of monotheism in Judaism before the Persians said good morning?

premjan

Is Greek monotheism just worship of Zeus? Zoroastrianism is monotheistic but also dualistic with a devil (who is not a God). Frankly, monotheism seems an extremely natural concept for any tribal group to have as it reinforces the power heirarchy (e.g. the chieftain's or priest's authority).

robto

Persian influence seems pretty clear for the post-captivity period, when Judaism picked up an "evil god" (Satan/Mastema/Azazel). But this appears to be an intrusion on the earlier monistic view, which seems unlikely to have developed from Persian dualistic ideas.

Malachi151

No, the Greek monotheism was more like deism or pantheism. The Greek monotheists rejected all the gods and instead said that there was just some unknown prime mover, etc. just a divine intelligence that created and controlled the universe. There was also someone else, Empedocles, who said that there was only one God, which was Love. Empedocles said that Love was the origin of the universe and that God is Love. This may sound Catholic, but indeed Empedocles was rejected and ridiculed by the later Christians as well.

Xenophanes was also an early Greek deistic monotheist, from the 6th century BCE. Xenophanes was also a materialist, and again viewed "god" as just some originator of the universe and source of morality, etc.

Clivedurdle

It is this kind of thinking I want to question - that Judaism was actually unique in inventing monotheism, and that Judaism was that important! We have clear propaganda statements by the chosen people, but what really happened? And I am sorry this Zarathustra isn't monotheistic because there is an opposite concept is ridiculous! Xianity is definitely dualist - garden of Eden, Revelation...

Judaism in fact looks classic chief god until the Persians arrive, and I actually do not see these alleged distinctions between monotheists and polytheists. Are there any monotheists who do not also believe in various types of heavenly host?

A sole god is a deist idea.

The Fire Temple and the Throne is a very powerful idea.

premjan

OK, you may be talking about the concept of Logos - that is considered monism rather than monotheism I think.

Malachi151

Cicero's The Nature of the Gods may be of help here:

http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Cicero.html#1