Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 01-19-2013, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The word “heresy” has nothing to do with heaven. Heresy describes a political struggle and its goal is political freedom from the emperor of Rome.

People everywhere suffered under the Catholic Caligula, the Catholic Nero that sings hail Marys as he watches the peasants burn.

The robber of pagan titles and Italian lands who replaced Constantine on the throne of Rome had made political resistance to his imperial crown a crime against god to legitimize the torture and the burning of his opponents and to install servile fear in the hearts and minds of everybody.

Sola fide was at the time the political weapon with which to defend basic principles of justice against the emperor of Rome.

Bullshit, heretics were fornicators of other peoples mind wherein they were leaders of the pack with the itch to preach the other Gospel Paul wrote about.

There was freedom to believe, or not to believe, and there was freedom to believe what each individual wants to believe, but the national religion was Catholic and not Christian as that was viewed as the anti-christ that speads like fire and still does today.

So it was OK to be a wolf, but not to scatter the flock and that was politically enforced. In this sense can you be a wolf and still be Catholic and go to church, or not, but do not mislead the flock by 'leading them to Jesus' was their argumant as he is the one who must call himself. So it is a hands-off religion so that the thief can come at night.

And they do not keep track if you go to church or not, because not going to church is also part of the act. No record is kept, ever, not even if you donate money, or not, except if you leave your name on it for Income tax purpose or for selective seating in front as self righteous Catholic.

All they did was make Catholicism the national religion after 400 years of fiery preachers fornicating everyone they could, wherein the people were torn between right and wrong in all directions and their 'call to order' was to stamp out this mental fornication of simple believers of any religion that was then.

In this sense Catholic was cold, and virgin to the end to remain innocent like Nicodemus was and therefore said 'huh?' and that is iconic too. The "huh' means tell me more and is the prompt that these wolves are after in every protestant religion except "United" maybe.

Oh, and I know that fire will escalate because it is very hot, and burns by day and night, which must be obvious to anyone.

Written with clarity in plain language! Thank you

Quote:

§ 85. The Crusades against the Albigenses.( cathars)

The mediaeval measures against heretics assumed an organized form in the crusades against the Albigenses, before the institution of the Inquisition received its full development. To the papacy belongs the whole responsibility of these merciless wars. Toulouse paid a bitter penalty for being the head centre of heresy.1At the opening of the Albigensian crusades the court of Toulouse was one of the gayest in Europe. At their close it was a spectacle of desolation.

Councils, beginning with the synod of Toulouse, 1119, issued articles against heresy and called upon the secular power to punish it. Mild measures were tried and proved ineffectual, whether they were the preaching and miracles of St. Bernard, 1147, or the diplomatic address of papal legates.

It remained for Innocent III to direct the full force of his native vigor against the spreading contagion and to execute the principles already solemnly announced by ecumenical and local councils. To him heretics were worse than the infidel who had never made profession of Christianity.

While Christendom was sending armaments against the Saracens, why should it not send an armament to crush the spiritual treason at home? In response to papal appeals, at least four distinct crusades were set on foot against the sectaries in Southern France.

Priests and abbots went at the head of the armies and, in the name of religion, commanded or justified the most atrocious barbarities. One of the fairest portions of Europe was laid waste and the counts of Toulouse were stripped by the pope of their authority and territory.

Chili · 01-19-2013, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The word “heresy” has nothing to do with heaven. Heresy describes a political struggle and its goal is political freedom from the emperor of Rome.

And the contradiction here is that politcs belongs to the 'lower' house that the Christian has vacated by moving into the upper room, and so a Christian cannot be political, and would not even vote!, as that is on the other side of the divide that no longer is for them and therefore belongs to the Emperor who protects his own, . . . even as the blessed sleeping under the bridges of Paris.

Chili · 01-19-2013, 08:38 AM

And 'selective seating,' like sitting 'first class' in church by auctioning off the right to sit in prefered pews was also done to decorate the hippocrate with his own money, to be sure, since churches are for sinners who seek repentance instead of pride.

It's is all part of the game they play in leading the people West and further West with the hope that they get lost and there find themselves like "a lamb caugth in a thicket," (Garcia Lorca here), for the good shepherd to find.

Iskander · 01-19-2013, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The word “heresy” has nothing to do with heaven. Heresy describes a political struggle and its goal is political freedom from the emperor of Rome.

And the contradiction here is that politcs belongs to the 'lower' house that the Christian has vacated by moving into the upper room, and so a Christian cannot be political, and would not even vote!, as that is on the other side of the divide that no longer is for them and therefore belongs to the Emperor who protects his own, . . . even as the blessed sleeping under the bridges of Paris.

God works in mysterious ways, but Jesus should choose his master more carefully.

Quote:

The long conflict was fully opened when Innocent called upon Louis VII. to take the field, that "it might be shown that the Lord had not given him the sword in vain," and promised him the lands of nobles shielding heresy, Raymund VI., who was averse to a policy of repression against his Catharan subjects, was excommunicated by Innocent’s legate, Peter of Castelnau, and his lands put under interdict. Innocent called him a noxious man, vir pestilens,all the punishments of the future world.

He threatened to call upon the princes to proceed against him with arms and take his lands. "The hand of the Lord will descend upon thee more severely, and show thee that it is hard for one who seeks to flee from the face of His wrath which thou hast provoked."

And the crusade went on. The Cistercians, at their General Chapter, decided to preach it. Princes and people from France, Flanders, and even Germany swelled the ranks. The same reward was promised to those who took the cross against the Cathari and Waldenses, as to those who went across the seas to fight the intruder upon the Holy Sepulchre.

In a general epistle to the faithful, Innocent wrote: —

"O most mighty soldiers of Christ, most brave warriors; Ye oppose the agents of anti-Christ, and ye fight against the servants of the old serpent. Perchance up to this time ye have fought for transitory glory, now fight for the glory which is everlasting.

Ye have fought for the body, fight now for the soul. Ye have fought for the world, now do ye fight for God.

For we have not exhorted you to the service of God for a worldly prize, but for the heavenly kingdom, which for this reason we promise to you with all confidence."

Chili · 01-19-2013, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The word “heresy” has nothing to do with heaven. Heresy describes a political struggle and its goal is political freedom from the emperor of Rome.

And the contradiction here is that politcs belongs to the 'lower' house that the Christian has vacated by moving into the upper room, and so a Christian cannot be political, and would not even vote!, as that is on the other side of the divide that no longer is for them and therefore belongs to the Emperor who protects his own, . . . even as the blessed sleeping under the bridges of Paris.

God works in mysterious ways, but Jesus should choose his master more carefully.

Quote:

The long conflict was fully opened when Innocent called upon Louis VII. to take the field, that "it might be shown that the Lord had not given him the sword in vain," and promised him the lands of nobles shielding heresy, Raymund VI., who was averse to a policy of repression against his Catharan subjects, was excommunicated by Innocent’s legate, Peter of Castelnau, and his lands put under interdict. Innocent called him a noxious man, vir pestilens,all the punishments of the future world.

He threatened to call upon the princes to proceed against him with arms and take his lands. "The hand of the Lord will descend upon thee more severely, and show thee that it is hard for one who seeks to flee from the face of His wrath which thou hast provoked."

And the crusade went on. The Cistercians, at their General Chapter, decided to preach it. Princes and people from France, Flanders, and even Germany swelled the ranks. The same reward was promised to those who took the cross against the Cathari and Waldenses, as to those who went across the seas to fight the intruder upon the Holy Sepulchre.

In a general epistle to the faithful, Innocent wrote: —

"O most mighty soldiers of Christ, most brave warriors; Ye oppose the agents of anti-Christ, and ye fight against the servants of the old serpent. Perchance up to this time ye have fought for transitory glory, now fight for the glory which is everlasting.

Ye have fought for the body, fight now for the soul. Ye have fought for the world, now do ye fight for God.

For we have not exhorted you to the service of God for a worldly prize, but for the heavenly kingdom, which for this reason we promise to you with all confidence."

It is an interesting topic but history is new to me. Never heard those names before but googled Raymond IV and read this line:

Quote:

Raymond VI is represented as one of four figures on the ceiling of the Minnesota Supreme Court in the United States of America. His painting is next to Moses, Confucius, and Socrates, each painting representing an aspect of law. Raymond VI's painting is entitled "The Adjustment of Conflicting Interests",

. . . where he is placed next to Confusion as if truth is not real and Raymond's choice' is just the best way out, and then call it justice as the best that we can do.

The Church saw a paradox in this as defender of the faith wherein the eternal truth was pointed at that Innocent's message to the faithful was about.

Yes I liked those words he wrote as a defender of the mainstay where the promise of heaven is to unfold in your life now:

"For we have not exhorted you to the service of God for a worldly prize, but for the heavenly kingdom, which for this reason we promise to you with all confidence."

So I am not interested in passing judgement about the circumstances here, but just want to point out that I see in the message that he preached to the faithful a confirmation of what I write about; i.e. the heavenly kingdom to them, which he can not hand out as bonus but may just be the end they find in their faithfulness; which, apropos, was quite common in those days when the Church still hummed, that for example O'Neil's "Emperor Jones" heard like a drumbeat in the background that get's louder with age to end only after the battle of life itself is fought.

. . . and Jesus does not choose, but is ordered by the Annunciation that comes first and was also very popular then.

Iskander · 01-19-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

God works in mysterious ways, but Jesus should choose his master more carefully.

It is an interesting topic but history is new to me. Never heard those names before but googled Raymond IV and read this line:

Quote:

Raymond VI is represented as one of four figures on the ceiling of the Minnesota Supreme Court in the United States of America. His painting is next to Moses, Confucius, and Socrates, each painting representing an aspect of law. Raymond VI's painting is entitled "The Adjustment of Conflicting Interests",

. . . where he is placed next to Confusion as if truth is not real and Raymond's choice' is just the best way out, and then call it justice as the best that we can do.

The Church saw a paradox in this as defender of the faith wherein the eternal truth was pointed at that Innocent's message to the faithful was about.

Yes I liked those words he wrote as a defender of the mainstay where the promise of heaven is to unfold in your life now:

"For we have not exhorted you to the service of God for a worldly prize, but for the heavenly kingdom, which for this reason we promise to you with all confidence."

So I am not interested in passing judgement about the circumstances here, but just want to point out that I see in the message that he preached to the faithful a confirmation of what I write about; i.e. the heavenly kingdom to them, which he can not hand out as bonus but may just be the end they find in their faithfulness; which, apropos, was quite common in those days when the Church still hummed, that for example O'Neil's "Emperor Jones" heard like a drumbeat in the background that get's louder with age to end only after the battle of life itself is fought.

. . . and Jesus does not choose, but is ordered by the Annunciation that comes first and was also very popular then.

As a nun might say, ‘the popes were “He man” then and not the softies we got later.’

Minnesota is Swedish territory, I believe, good of them to remember sweet Jesus

Quote:

Awed by the sound of the coming storm, Raymond offered his submission and promised to crush out heresy. The humiliating spectacle of Raymond’s penance was then enacted in the convent church of St. Gilles. In the vestibule, naked to the waist, he professed compliance with all the papal conditions. Sixteen of the count’s vassals took oath to see the hard vow was kept and pledged themselves to renew the oath every year, upon pain of being classed with heretics. Then holding the ends of a stole, wrapped around the penitent’s neck like a halter, the papal legate led Raymond before the altar, the count being flagellated as he proceeded.

Raymond’s submission, however, did not check the muster of troops which were gathering in large numbers at Lyons. At their side were the duke of Burgundy, the counts of Nevers, St. Pol, Auxerre, Geneva, and Poitiers, and other princes. The soldier, chosen to be the leader, was Simon de Montfort. Simon had been one of the prominent leaders of the Fourth Crusade, and was a zealous supporter of the papacy. He neglected not to hear mass every day, even after the most bloody massacres in the campaigns in Southern France. His contemporaries hailed him as another Judas Maccabaeus and even compared him to Charlemagne

In spite of the remonstrance of Raymond, who had joined the army, the papal legate, Arnold of Citeaux, refused to check its march. Beziers was stormed and horrible scenes followed. The wild soldiery heeded well the legate’s command, "Fell all to the ground. The Lord knows His own." legates, Milo and Arnold, the "divine vengeance raged wonderfully against the city

Chili · 01-19-2013, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

As a nun might say, ‘the popes were “He man” then and not the softies we got later.’

Minnesota is Swedish territory, I believe, good of them to remember sweet Jesus

Poor girls, it must be hard for them.

It is written all over the land, as in every second word they say.

Iskander · 01-19-2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

As a nun might say, ‘the popes were “He man” then and not the softies we got later.’

Minnesota is Swedish territory, I believe, good of them to remember sweet Jesus

Poor girls, it must be hard for them.

It is written all over the land, as in every second word they say.

mountainman · 01-22-2013, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The robber of pagan titles and Italian lands who replaced Constantine on the throne of Rome had made political resistance to his imperial crown a crime against god to legitimize the torture and the burning of his opponents and to install servile fear in the hearts and minds of everybody.

Sola fide was at the time the political weapon with which to defend basic principles of justice against the emperor of Rome.

Sola fide

Quote:

"Justification by faith" redirects here.

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works", alone.

All humanity, it is asserted, is fallen and sinful, under the curse of God, and incapable of saving itself from God's wrath and curse. But God, on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of his Son, Jesus Christ alone (solus Christus), grants sinners judicial pardon, or justification, which is received solely through faith.

Chili · 01-22-2013, 09:45 PM

as

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

"Justification by faith" redirects here.

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine that distinguishes most Protestant denominations from Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and some in the Restoration Movement.

The doctrine of sola fide or "by faith alone" asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith, conceived as excluding all "works", alone.

All humanity, it is asserted, is fallen and sinful, under the curse of God, and incapable of saving itself from God's wrath and curse. But God, on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of his Son, Jesus Christ alone (solus Christus), grants sinners judicial pardon, or justification, which is received solely through faith.

I know, but that the protestant interpretation so they can brew salvation recipies.

Faith in the heart is required here and that is the fruition of good works as in 'good works against the stream of consciousness,' which so is just contrary to 'repent and belief' to become 'believe and repent' with it's implications.

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01-19-2013, 08:38 AM	#23
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	And 'selective seating,' like sitting 'first class' in church by auctioning off the right to sit in prefered pews was also done to decorate the hippocrate with his own money, to be sure, since churches are for sinners who seek repentance instead of pride. It's is all part of the game they play in leading the people West and further West with the hope that they get lost and there find themselves like "a lamb caugth in a thicket," (Garcia Lorca here), for the good shepherd to find.

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