Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 04-06-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Not that I fit the profile of whom you are asking...

Isn't this all rather a derail?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Julian · 04-06-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Isn't this all rather a derail?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[MOD]
You are correct, it is. Please stay on topic, all, which is the Gospel of Judas.

Thanks,
Julian
Moderator BC&H
[/MOD]

Peter Kirby · 04-06-2006, 12:48 PM

Kudos to National Geographic for getting it out as quickly as they did.

:thumbs:

Now when will an amateur translation or illegal transcription of the English appear on the 'net??

regards,
Peter Kirby

Roger Pearse · 04-06-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Kudos to National Geographic for getting it out as quickly as they did.

Still more so for making the Coptic freely available!

Quote:

Now when will an amateur translation or illegal transcription of the English appear on the 'net??

I'd rather have an amateur translation. Is there anyone out there with Coptic who wants to earn a bit of dosh? If we pass the hat around?

By the way, Peter, you're supposed to be out there getting a life. Go away and concentrate on more wholesome things. NOW.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Peter Kirby · 04-06-2006, 02:38 PM

Roger is right as usual, but I'm making an exception for Coptic studies because one of my goals made several months ago was to get better at Coptic in particular, it being a still underdeveloped field (as opposed to Greek NT studies, which is an aggressively tilled inheritance split over a thousand times, with each minute plot being forced to produce still more--a task made even more difficult by the wild donkeys who trample the area regularly and indolent slugs who would eat away at any hard won results).

I tried looking at the Coptic placed up on the web, but I'm stuck on the second word. Can anyone tell me what it is? Crum's Coptic dictionary has atrocious organization--what possessed him to do anything other than an alphabetical dictionary, I do not know. The only pattern I've found is that all the words starting with a certain letter are found in that chapter of the dictionary.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 04-06-2006, 03:47 PM

Okay, by comparison with the Gospel of Thomas' incipit, I've deduced that the second word in the Gospel of Judas is "hidden" or "secret" or "obscure" (epsilon theta eta pi in Thomas). Why this wasn't in my dictionaries, I don't know.

The first word in the Gospel of Judas is "logos" (with the definite article), which Meyer and friends translate as "account."

The openings of Thomas and Judas are startlingly similar.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Phlox Pyros · 04-06-2006, 04:07 PM

Great resource! Thanks!

Do they have better, up close and readable images of the MSS that we could compare with the transcription?

It appears that the beginning of this "Gospel" was the middle of a book. The number at the top (what I assume to be the page number) is lambda gamma or 33. I wonder what came before it...

Peter, you mentioned logos at the beginning with an attached article. I am not familiar with Coptic, but is the article really a pi? How strange... It looks like plogos.

If anyone knows of a good link to Coptic resources on the net, please post it. Also, if you know of any good grammars or lexicons, please post those as well. Thanks again!

It would be fun to pull together and try to create a "amateur translation".

Chris Weimer · 04-06-2006, 04:22 PM

Peter - I've been wandering if you were still active around these parts. How far have you gotten on Lambdin's? Coptic, from my basic tutorial earlier and a cursory look through Lambdin, gives me the impression that it's not too difficult to hash out a translation however amateurish. And plus there's the couple Coptic lists on Yahoo. I think it could be done.

BTW - the English is already on the net. Check the links that Roger gave earlier.

best,

Chris Weimer

Phlox Pyros · 04-06-2006, 04:45 PM

Like we didn't know it already, but the mention of Barbelo on page 35 makes this an obviously Gnostic text.

Peter Kirby · 04-06-2006, 04:50 PM

Yes, the definite masculine singular article is a proclitic pi (or pi epsilon). It is the least strange thing in the world to any given Coptic speaker.

I am confident that the third word comes from the Greek apophasis, meaning denial, and that it has nothing to do with "revelation" as the NYT translation suggests. This encourages me to work on the Coptic text more and try to find out the possible and probable meanings of the text, independent from the translation of Meyer et al.

I would appreciate others providing their own efforts along the same lines. A collaboration with people such as Grondin (and you, Chris) would be helpful.

I've flitted through most of the Lambdin book, but only went through the first ten chapters sequentially.

regards,
Peter Kirby

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04-06-2006, 12:48 PM	#13
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Kudos to National Geographic for getting it out as quickly as they did. :thumbs: Now when will an amateur translation or illegal transcription of the English appear on the 'net?? regards, Peter Kirby

04-06-2006, 02:38 PM	#15
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Roger is right as usual, but I'm making an exception for Coptic studies because one of my goals made several months ago was to get better at Coptic in particular, it being a still underdeveloped field (as opposed to Greek NT studies, which is an aggressively tilled inheritance split over a thousand times, with each minute plot being forced to produce still more--a task made even more difficult by the wild donkeys who trample the area regularly and indolent slugs who would eat away at any hard won results). I tried looking at the Coptic placed up on the web, but I'm stuck on the second word. Can anyone tell me what it is? Crum's Coptic dictionary has atrocious organization--what possessed him to do anything other than an alphabetical dictionary, I do not know. The only pattern I've found is that all the words starting with a certain letter are found in that chapter of the dictionary. regards, Peter Kirby

04-06-2006, 03:47 PM	#16
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Okay, by comparison with the Gospel of Thomas' incipit, I've deduced that the second word in the Gospel of Judas is "hidden" or "secret" or "obscure" (epsilon theta eta pi in Thomas). Why this wasn't in my dictionaries, I don't know. The first word in the Gospel of Judas is "logos" (with the definite article), which Meyer and friends translate as "account." The openings of Thomas and Judas are startlingly similar. regards, Peter Kirby

04-06-2006, 04:07 PM	#17
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	Great resource! Thanks! Do they have better, up close and readable images of the MSS that we could compare with the transcription? It appears that the beginning of this "Gospel" was the middle of a book. The number at the top (what I assume to be the page number) is lambda gamma or 33. I wonder what came before it... Peter, you mentioned logos at the beginning with an attached article. I am not familiar with Coptic, but is the article really a pi? How strange... It looks like plogos. If anyone knows of a good link to Coptic resources on the net, please post it. Also, if you know of any good grammars or lexicons, please post those as well. Thanks again! It would be fun to pull together and try to create a "amateur translation".

04-06-2006, 04:22 PM	#18
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Peter - I've been wandering if you were still active around these parts. How far have you gotten on Lambdin's? Coptic, from my basic tutorial earlier and a cursory look through Lambdin, gives me the impression that it's not too difficult to hash out a translation however amateurish. And plus there's the couple Coptic lists on Yahoo. I think it could be done. BTW - the English is already on the net. Check the links that Roger gave earlier. best, Chris Weimer

04-06-2006, 04:45 PM	#19
Phlox Pyros Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 7th Heaven Posts: 406	Like we didn't know it already, but the mention of *Barbelo* on page 35 makes this an obviously Gnostic text.

04-06-2006, 04:50 PM	#20
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Yes, the definite masculine singular article is a proclitic pi (or pi epsilon). It is the least strange thing in the world to any given Coptic speaker. I am confident that the third word comes from the Greek apophasis, meaning denial, and that it has nothing to do with "revelation" as the NYT translation suggests. This encourages me to work on the Coptic text more and try to find out the possible and probable meanings of the text, independent from the translation of Meyer et al. I would appreciate others providing their own efforts along the same lines. A collaboration with people such as Grondin (and you, Chris) would be helpful. I've flitted through most of the Lambdin book, but only went through the first ten chapters sequentially. regards, Peter Kirby

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