Loomis

Why not just read the text in its context?

Loomis

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 LXX preserves the idea that QEOS and KURIOS were separate deities.

Solo

I thought I just explained it, no ??! :bulb: :bulb:

Besides, Paul explains the new semantic mechanics for (the) Lord just a couple of verses before :

Rom 10:8-9: The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Consequently my (amateur) take on Rom 10:13 is not that Paul misreads Joel 2:32 but that he .....hold your chair, because this may floor you ....creatively adapts the saying of the prophet to his own ecstatic context.

I am sure it makes perfect sense to you.

I also feel assured you believe Paul made a mistake and was making things up based on that mistake.

Just out of curiosity: What do you think Paul means by deliver(ing) my body to be burned in 1 Cor 13:3 ?

Much obliged.

Jiri

Loomis

If you can find fault with anything I’ve said then now’s the time to do it.

I called it a ‘lie’ and you called it a ‘creative adaptation’ but I think we more-or-less agree that he was inserting ideas into Joel 2:32 that weren’t in the original.

Right?

If I understand you correctly then the only difference between us is that you think Paul understood that the Lord in Joel 2:32 already had a proper name (but didn’t give a shit), and I think he was completely unaware of any proper name. (I think he was naïve.)

Is that a fair assessment of our differences?

If so then please offer evidence to support the position that Paul knew there was a proper name behind Joel 2:32.

And if not, then what am I overlooking?

Clivedurdle

Why would a Jew from Tarsus - Pharisees could travel couldn't they - be expected to know any Hebrew when his scriptures are readily available in Greek?

My mum is welsh, I know ten words of Welsh!

aa5874

Why do you assume "Paul" used Joel 2.32.

The word "Lord" is found over 6000 times in the OT.

And further, the letters with the name Paul contain passages from almost all the books of the OT, Isaiah being the most frequent. It is just not possible to claim with any certainty that "Paul" used Joel first or used Joel alone to configure his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Loomis

I’m sorry if you misunderstood me. I’m not claiming that Paul used Joel 2:32 LXX alone to configure his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I’m claiming that there was ignorance among the Greeks concerning who the Lord of the LXX was, and what His relationship was with Theos.

I’m claiming that that confusion led to speculation, and that Paul fed off of it. I think Paul’s version of Christ is tightly coupled to it.

aa5874

I think it is a massive error to deal with "Paul" in isolation as if he alone existed in the 1st century with information about Jesus, when "Paul" himself clearly does not even ever claim to be the originator of the character Jesus or Christ.

"Paul" is a continuation or folllow-up of the Jesus the god/man that was on earth.

In essence, there need NOT have been any LXX, Paul's message was that Jesus the god/man was actually on earth, and his revelations are just a confirmation of the historical god/man activities on earth.

"Paul" did need NOT the LXX, the resurrected Jesus could reveal the LXX to him. The LXX is from the God of the Jews. Jesus the resurrected son of the God of the Jews, would tell "Paul" what to preach.

The same guy, Jesus, who was in Galilee that died and rose after the third day, he is talking to me now from heaven. So, listen to me. That is "Paul's message and it is not in the LXX.

show_no_mercy

Maybe this will help out.



YHWH is not supposed to be pronounced in and of itself. In our English version of the OT YHWH is substituted with the word LORD (depending on which translation you use).

Psalm 110:1 in English

Psalm 110:1 in Hebrew from http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt26b0.htm
Notice that YHWH (יְהוָה) only occurs one time in Psalm 110:1. However, in English there are two "lords" when really there's one "lord" (king David) and then YHWH (יְהוָה pronounced as "lord").

Another case of mistaken identity by the gospel writers who wrote in Greek and could only read their Greek LXX version of Psalm 110:1 to prove the divinity of Jesus:

Loomis

Right. Like I said before it looks like Paul got the name Jesus from an earlier tradition like the one in Hebrews; which is based around the Joshua/ high priest theme. But that’s where the similarity ends. The author of Hebrews definitely made a distinction between Jesus and the Lord.
Tell that to Paul. He’s the one that quoted the LXX. Not me.

Sure it is. The stuff about the three days comes from Hosea 6:2 LXX.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/tex.../38.Hosea.mlxx