FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-01-2008, 02:35 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,307
Default Carrier on Ignatian Vexation

Richard Carrier just has a new blogpost up, called Ignatian Vexation. Here's a sample:
Quote:
Last entry here I already mentioned one of the issues that came up: my stumbling into several muddles in New Testament studies that I thought had been reasonably resolved by now. Many issues I thought were cut-and-dried are actually mired in complexity, and my research in these areas has absorbed far more time than it should have. The two most annoying examples of this (though not the only ones) are in dating the contents of the New Testament and identifying their authorship and editorial history.
Lots of vexations about dating Ignatius and whether he knows the gospel of Matthew. All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."

Stephen
S.C.Carlson is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 03:23 PM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

IMHO the situation may be in some ways worse than Richard Carrier realises. A minority of scholars have dated the letters of Ignatius to the reign of Hadrian rather than Trajan. (IMVHO they are right.)

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 03:35 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewcriddle View Post
IMHO the situation may be in some ways worse than Richard Carrier realises. A minority of scholars have dated the letters of Ignatius to the reign of Hadrian rather than Trajan. (IMVHO they are right.)

Andrew Criddle
Andrew,

Can you send me the bibliographic info on these folks? I'm exloring some ideas about the lateness of Matthew and I'd like to see what they have to say.

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 04:10 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,787
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson View Post
All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."
Every so often I dip very informally into the field of biology (common descent and such) just for the sake of interest. The last couple of weeks or so has been one of those times. I am always rendered absolutely jealous at how much evidence scientists have to work with compared to historians, and how frequently they are able to produce even more evidence via clever experimentation and data collection, whereas historians get only so many Qumrans.

I agree; it is a swamp.

Ben.
Ben C Smith is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 08:32 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,307
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Can you send me the bibliographic info on these folks? I'm exloring some ideas about the lateness of Matthew and I'd like to see what they have to say.
I'd like to see this too.

Stephen
S.C.Carlson is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:38 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 5,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben C Smith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson View Post
All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."
Every so often I dip very informally into the field of biology (common descent and such) just for the sake of interest. The last couple of weeks or so has been one of those times. I am always rendered absolutely jealous at how much evidence scientists have to work with compared to historians, and how frequently they are able to produce even more evidence via clever experimentation and data collection, whereas historians get only so many Qumrans.

I agree; it is a swamp.

Ben.
If only the angel at the tomb of Jesus had hung around a bit longer and told many more people, rather than just telling a few people that it knew would not be considered credible witnesses, then we would have clear evidence , rather than a swamp.

Still, I imagine angels have more pressing business than announcing the resurrection of Jesus to more than a couple of people.

If there were a god, the evidence would be a lot clearer, would it not?
Steven Carr is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 11:31 PM   #7
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson View Post
Lots of vexations about dating Ignatius and whether he knows the gospel of Matthew. All I can say is, "Welcome to the Swamp. Hope you like it here."

Stephen
To the casual reader the NT may appear to be a swamp, but with time and careful observation the swamp will disappear and a clear case of deliberate errors will emerge.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 10-01-2008, 11:56 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: ""
Posts: 3,863
Default

Sounds like he is doing a good job and will certainly come up with something pretty educational.
Ted Hoffman is offline  
Old 10-02-2008, 01:22 AM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mornington Peninsula
Posts: 1,306
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carr View Post
If there were a god, the evidence would be a lot clearer, would it not?
Nah, these gods like to keep the 'evidence' obscure. Much more tantalising that way, and the priests make a good living.

I found Carrier's description of Ignatian's peregrinations hilarious.
youngalexander is offline  
Old 10-02-2008, 05:30 AM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,787
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carr View Post
If there were a god, the evidence would be a lot clearer, would it not?
Maybe, maybe not. How much do we know about gods?

Ben.
Ben C Smith is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:20 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.