Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 03:31 PM

Consider the following from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

The partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned. If Jewish history and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Jews had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties, there is no way that the U.S. would have approved of Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem. There is not doubt whatsoever that the partition of Palestine is a bona fide case of a Bible based, self-filfilling prophecy.

Historically, humans have acquired land largely by military means. The partition of Palestine is only one more example of the acquisition of land by military means.

If Jews and Palestinians were contesting the ownership of land in a remote desert region in Australia that had no valuable natural resources, Jews, Muslims, and conservative Christians would be quite interested in those squabbles, but no one else in the world would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And both sides recieved arms and material support from different countries. Did America ever fight along side Jews in the wars? No. America the superpower whichever side it helps wins...right? Try telling that to South Vietnam, try telling that to the Somozistas, try telling that to the anti-Castro forces of Cuba, try telling that to the anti-Chavez forces in Venezuela. You keep on bringing up military might as if Americans fought in this war....they did not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Are you saying that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, that the partition of Palestine would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and would have awarded a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to Palestians such as the Jews got? In addition, are you saying that the Bible did not have anything to with the partition of Palestine.

A brief history lesson is in order here. During the first part of the Second World War, the U.S. did not have any troops in Europe. At that time, did the U.S. fight along side of the British? No. Did aid from the U.S. prevent Hitler from defeating Britain? Yes. Would Palestine have been partitioned the way that it was partioned without help from nations who were predominanantly Christian? No. If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, would the United Nations have granted the Jews control of Jerusalem and awarded Palestians a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to like the Jews got? No.

Obviously, sugarhitman does not have any idea whatsoever what he is talking about.

arnoldo · 01-27-2008, 06:09 PM

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;5103168]Consider the following from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

The partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned. .

The Jewish won the war for independence, after the partition of Israel in 1948, because they had more TROOPS not because the United States supplied weapons. They had more troops because Jewish people were willing to immigrate to Israel despite the risks of being in the middle of a massive war. No foreign troops came in to help Israel. Israel defended itself. The Old Testament clearly shows that God helps Israel win it's military battles.

Sheshonq · 01-27-2008, 09:38 PM

[QUOTE=arnoldo;5118461]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from another thread:

The Jewish won the war for independence, after the partition of Israel in 1948, because they had more TROOPS not because the United States supplied weapons.

Incorrect.

Instead of guessing, why don't you spend an hour learning about the military status of combatants at that time?

I think we all know why you won't do it:

1. that would take work and initiative, which is asking too much of you;

2. it would get in the way of preaching, even though you're preaching is based on bad facts

Quote:

No foreign troops came in to help Israel. Israel defended itself.

Again, wrong.

Quote:

The Old Testament clearly shows that God helps Israel win it's military battles.

Except when Israel lost to Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Egypt, Rome, etc. etc. etc. :rolling:

Johnny Skeptic · 01-28-2008, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

The partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The Jewish won the war for independence, after the partition of Israel in 1948, because they had more TROOPS, not because the United States supplied weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

They had more troops because Jewish people were willing to immigrate to Israel despite the risks of being in the middle of a massive war. No foreign troops came in to help Israel. Israel defended itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The Old Testament clearly shows that God helps Israel win it's military battles.

No it doesn't. The Philistines, Nebuchadnezzar, the Egyptians, and the Romans persecuted and killed hundreds of thousands of Jews. In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine to put down a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. Why did all of that happen? If it was because the Jews did not do what God wanted them to do, why did God punish innocent Jewish babies?

Now let me ask you something: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

Even if God did choose the Jews to be his chosen people, I would reject hiim because I do not endorse favoritism.

Last but not least, you have any not stated any reasonable motives regarding why God did not make indisputable predictions. No reasonable motives = no God of the Bible.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-28-2008, 08:54 AM

Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

Even if God did choose the Jews to be his chosen people, I would reject him because I do not endorse favoritism.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-28-2008, 01:11 PM

Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

Even if God did choose the Jews to be his chosen people, I would reject him because I do not endorse favoritism.

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01-28-2008, 08:54 AM	#5
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else. Even if God did choose the Jews to be his chosen people, I would reject him because I do not endorse favoritism.

01-28-2008, 01:11 PM	#6
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else. Even if God did choose the Jews to be his chosen people, I would reject him because I do not endorse favoritism.

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