maryhelena

And the way it can be accounted for is not by assuming a historical JC - it is to look to Jewish history. People develop stories from history, interpretations, meaning etc. Oral traditions passed down. What we have with JC is a story about a messianic figure, labelled king of the Jews, being crucified by a representative of Rome. Is there any history being referenced by this gospel storyline? Consider this Jewish history of 37 bc.


Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews, is the historical model for the gospel crucifixion part of the JC storyline. Thus, with this historical core, opponents of the gospel JC storyline - ie a messianic figure crucified by Rome, would have no argument. That the gospels set this crucifixion around 30 or 33 ce is part of their storyline; their reinterpretation of history to suit their theological and prophetic agenda. (and bear in mind that Paul gives no chronology for his part of the gospel storyline...)

If there was no historical core to the gospel JC storyline - and not just the Antigonus element - the storyline would have faded into oblivion without ever developing any legs to carry it forward.

(If Daniel ch.9 is of interest: 33 ce is 70 years from the crucifixion of Antigonus in 37 bc. The 7th year of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7.8) in 458 bc + 490 years - and we are down to the period of time in which the gospel writers place their literary JC construct, ie 30 to 33 ce.... in order to fulfill prophecy...)

Toto

Who would have been motivated, and what what the motivation?

To deny the "existence" of Apollo would be to deny his power. But to say that Jesus was an ordinary man would be the comparable way to deny his power.

PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

No, I did not mean to imply that Jesus was historical like Reagan, merely that Reagan took advantage of being inserted into a chain of symbols with a strange combination of religious and sports meanings. Some of these symbols like the term "the Gipper" has strange and quite false associations.

George Gipp died several weeks after playing in his last football game under Coach Rockne. Although the game was won and Gipp had a badly injured shoulder, Rockne inserted him into the game. He died December 14, 1920 of a Strep infection two weeks later. Did Rockne inadvertently kill his star player by forcing him to play while injured? Was this a case of over-motivation leading to death?

Although, he was in the hospital for three weeks, Rockne apparently did not hurry to see his star player, but reportedly, he was the last person to see Gipp alive, the night before he died, December 13, 1920. He claimed that Gipp died in his arms. This seems to be another lie in a long chain of lies.

One of Rockne's most famous players, one of the so called "Four Horsemen" (note the reference and relationship to the book of Revelation and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse) was skeptical that George Gipp had made any kind of death bed request.

(from http://www.irishlegends.com/pages/re...ections25.html)

Gipp himself, although a star athlete, was a poor student. He never graduated high-school and after playing semi-pro baseball was given an athletic scholarship to Notre Dame. He was kicked out of college for not attending classes in his junior year. For the sake of the football team the school brought him back. He was known for his drinking, pool hustling and gambling, often betting on games that he was playing, something illegal now, but not illegal in 1917-1920 when he played.

Rockne never mentioned the alleged death bed request of Gipp to win a game for him, for eight years to anybody. The day before the Notre Dame-Army game a large retrospective article had appeared in the Daily News remembering George Gipp.

While the story, as related in the 1940 movie, often makes it appear that the Notre Dame team staged a great comeback, in actuality, the score was 0-0 at halftime. Army actually scored the first touchdown after halftime. Notre Dame came back with two touchdowns to take a 12-6 lead. Army was driving and on Notre Dame's one foot line, when the time keeper whistled the game over. Since Army had made a first down on the last play, the clock should have been stopped and army should have been given a chance to tie and win the game on the next play. When reporting on the game a week later, Time magazine noted that it was an extraordinary game, but only because the referee had determined the outcome. See Time Magazine

Rather than reporting on the sordid and perhaps criminal ending of the game, Francis Wallace, a Notre Dame Alumnis, who had been a college publicist for Rockne, wrote the story of Rockne's speech two days after the game. He had not been in the locker room but Joe Byrne, Jr., an eyewitness, told him about the talk and, on Monday, he published the story in his paper under the headline "GIPP'S GHOST BEAT ARMY"

The story was ignored and only two years later, when John B. Kennedy ghostwrote an autobiographical story for Rockne and it appeared in Collier's magazine, did it become nationally known.

The idea that the speech itself had a great effect on the players is also problematic. Army was favored because it had a 6-0 record going into the game and Notre Dame was 4-2. Also Army had won the game the previous year, 17-0. However, Notre Dame's win could not have been considered a great upset. It had beaten Army in 8 of the previous 10 years. The previous year, Notre Dame had a 7-1-1 record, while Army was 9-1, however Notre Dame was ranked 4th and Army 6th in 1927, in the Dickinson rankings, because it had played against better teams.

We can say that the original speech was another in a series of made-up lies/sermons that Knute Rockne used to inspire his players.

In order to cover up a scandalous referee's game changing call, it was made into a publicity fantasy story published in the N.Y. Daily News, and soon became a legend due to Collier's Magazine and Warner Brothers (Robert Bruckner wrote the screenplay).

Reagan too certainly contributed at every opportunity to fix the Myth of the Holy Ghost, of poor doomed athlete George Gipp. Having played George Gipp for eight minutes in a movie, he confused himself with the character, and the miraculous fantasy character with the historical athlete.

Finally, at the 2004 Republican Convention, George W. Bush urged people to vote for himself in order to really win one for the Gipper.

While Reagan, Gipp, Rockne, and Bush are historical people. "The Gipper," is a holy ghost, a legend of a character that sacrifices his life to win football games and elections. He is made up of bits and pieces of historical characters, but mostly fantasies created by mulitiple writers.


Warmly,

Philosopher Jay.

GakuseiDon

I don't think it proves anything. IMHO it's an element in a cumulative case.

Toto

There is no cumulative case. Please stop claiming that there is a cumulative case until you have some coherent argument for it.

aa5874

You will be BUSTED again. You continuously PRESENT Propaganda.


1. Your claim that Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 was authentic was BUSTED by Origen's "Commentary on Matthew" X.17, and Against Celsus 1.47 and 2.13

2. Your claim that Tiberius was was ALREADY called Son of God was BUSTED by Suetonius "Life of Tiberius.

Now, Tertullian's "On the Flesh of Christ" will BUST you wide OPEN.

You KNOW very well that there is a book called "On the Flesh of Christ" and that it DESTROYS HJ.

You know in that very book SEVERAL questions were asked.

Let us go to the "On the Flesh of Christ" and have a look at the questions

"On the Flesh of Christ". You have been BUSTED again, and again and again.

I am getting REAL TIRED of BUSTING you WIDE OPEN with evidence from antiquity.

But, it was the CHRISTIANS who BUSTED YOU this time. They all AGREE that that Jesus was of a SPIRITUAL Nature.

Jesus was believed to be DIVINE in Antiquity.

But, I will let the author of "On the Flesh of Christ" tell HOW Jesus existed in Antiquity.

How many times must you be Busted before you Give up your propaganda?

There were DISPUTES whether Jesus Christ EXISTED in the FLESH even by CHRISTIANS in Antiquity.

Doug Shaver

How can a datum that proves nothing contribute anything to a cumulative case?

And you still have not responded to my question about how, if anybody had denied that the gospels were about a real man, we would know about that denial.

Doug Shaver

We don't know that. What we know is that no documentation about any such argument has survived to modern times.

Is there anything we know that makes the non-survival of such documentation improbable, given the assumption that it once existed?

mountainman

But what about John's statement about the disbelievers who would not confess that Jesus actually existed - as "appeared in the flesh". John tells us that the world was full of such people. GDon did not answer this question.

Why dont we believe "John" at face value? Is it too much to believe?

There were always antichristian "unbelievers" even in his own time, "John" says.

These people refused to confess that Jesus existed "in the flesh".
But what would "John" know about such reports in his time?.

GakuseiDon

Maybe we have a different understanding of the terms "proves" and "cumulative case". AFAIK a datum can contribute towards a cumulative case without it proving anything, if it is a question of proof.

I don't know how we would know, if it is a question of knowing.