Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 03-16-2013, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Until you deal with what people say to you, there is no point in repeating things to you. I've already demonstrated this fact. You need to totally re-examine this issue.

Hi Spin, here is what you said that supposedly gave an answer about the Sabbath of Lev 23:15:

Quote:

Spins supposed answer:
"According to Leviticus there is no feast sabbath (other than the feast that falls on the sabbath). This should be clear to you from the separation of feast days and sabbaths (Lam 2:6), feasts, new moons and sabbaths (1 Chr 23:31), etc. The day of atonement, Lev 16:31 calls a sabbath sabbaton, ie a sabbath observance, requiring the same observance as a sabbath. This is also the case for the first and eighth days of Sukkot. It is not the case for other holy days."

Now, how is it that I can't read your answer when you remain silent about Judaism's belief that Lev 23:15 is a Sabbath, the Sabbath of Nissan 15.

I guess it's your unwillingness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You say in your supposed answer that no feast days should be considered Sabbaths unless they fall on the weekly Sabbath or is either the day of atonement or one of Sukkot's Holy Days. Low and behold, your supposed answer goes up in flames because it does not address Judaism's belief about the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nissan 15) as being a legitimate Sabbath that they count from, and should have a day of preparation before it.

How can I hold your hand on this one, Ken Brown? If you won't read what I said, it should say that you won't read other things I say on the subject. Look at the bolded section of my statement again. Ponder on it for a bit and let it resonate in your mind. Add to the mix a verb שבת shabat, "to observe or keep (the sabbath)", which has a derived noun, שבתון shabbaton "observance". So sabbath sabbaton is sabbath observance. It does not mean "sabbath". When you've processed that and shown you have understood it, perhaps we can continue, because there is a little more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Why are you scared to answer the fact that Judaism, by virtue of counting from the Sabbath of Nissan 15, proves that the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath? What is it, do you believe when Elohim commanded to count from the morrow after the Sabbath, that He was mislabeling that day as a Sabbath? KB

Your world is rather limited, isn't it? Perhaps you might be scared of such things, but I don't live in your strange world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Oh and does anyone think that Ken Brown will admit that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about the sabbath? But then his whole house of cards will collapse.

Now plainly, you have avoided the fact that the definition of unleavened bread does not contain a reference to a sabbath at all. All your rubbish about sabbaths is a red herring because you have no sabbath mentioned in Lev 23:5-8. There is only mention of a miqra, a "holy convocation". You've been bullshitting for quite some time, because ultimately you know that you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.

Sheshbazzar · 03-16-2013, 08:17 AM

Living in a strange world?

How much of the world's Jewish population believes, accepts, and teaches that the Scriptural Seventh Day Sabbath begins at sunrise on Saturday morning?

How much of the world's Jewish population believes, accepts, and teaches that the Scriptural Seventh Day Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday, the sixth day of the week?

How much of the world's Christian population believes, accepts, and teaches that the Jews Sabbath begins at the sunset of Friday afternoon ?

How much of the world's population believes accepts and teaches that the Jews Sabbath begins at sunrise on Satuday morning ?

There is only one person that I know of that argues for the morning sunrise interpretation of these texts, against the billions that believe, accept, and teach that the Scriptural Seventh Day Sabbath of the Jews begins at sunset on Friday, the sixth day of the week.

Anyone that so interprets the Scriptural texts as to believe The Scriptual Seventh Day Sabbath begins at sunrise on the Seventh Day of the week, on Saturday morning, is one who is living in a very strange world.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 08:58 AM

Forgetting for a moment this guy. For the sake of intellectual sport. Wouldn't a community with a 364 day calendar always have the 14th on a Sabbath? If the first of the first fell on the first day of the week doesn't that mean that the 14th always falls on the seventh day? Just for argument's sake.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, here is what you said that supposedly gave an answer about the Sabbath of Lev 23:15:

Now, how is it that I can't read your answer when you remain silent about Judaism's belief that Lev 23:15 is a Sabbath, the Sabbath of Nissan 15.

I guess it's your unwillingness.

How can I hold your hand on this one, Ken Brown? If you won't read what I said, it should say that you won't read other things I say on the subject. Look at the bolded section of my statement again. Ponder on it for a bit and let it resonate in your mind. Add to the mix a verb שבת shabat, "to observe or keep (the sabbath)", which has a derived noun, שבתון shabbaton "observance". So sabbath sabbaton is sabbath observance. It does not mean "sabbath". When you've processed that and shown you have understood it, perhaps we can continue, because there is a little more.

Your world is rather limited, isn't it? Perhaps you might be scared of such things, but I don't live in your strange world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Oh and does anyone think that Ken Brown will admit that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about the sabbath? But then his whole house of cards will collapse.

Now plainly, you have avoided the fact that the definition of unleavened bread does not contain a reference to a sabbath at all. All your rubbish about sabbaths is a red herring because you have no sabbath mentioned in Lev 23:5-8. There is only mention of a miqra, a "holy convocation". You've been bullshitting for quite some time, because ultimately you know that you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Admit it, there is no mention of a sabbath in the Lev 23 text concerning the first and last days of unleavened bread. It is time you admit it and stop dancing around.

Hi Spin, you have exposed your error again. You say that ONLY a mention of a "miqra" (a holy convocation) is connected with Feast days of Unleavened Bread, but the unmitigated Truth is that there is ALSO a REST/Ceasing from work, just like on the weekly Sabbath. When the jaws of reason clamp down on a shackled, irrational mind, the outcome is evident to all who observe. KB

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 09:08 AM

Clement identifies the 13th as the day of preparation:

Quote:

Accordingly, in the years gone by, Jesus went to eat the passover sacrificed by the Jews, keeping the feast. But when he had preached He who was the Passover, the Lamb of God, led as a sheep to the slaughter, presently taught His disciples the mystery of the type on the thirteenth day, on which also they inquired, "Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat the passover?" It was on this day, then, that both the consecration of the unleavened bread and the preparation for the feast took place. Whence John naturally describes the disciples as already previously prepared to have their feet washed by the Lord. And on the following day our Saviour suffered, He who was the Passover, propitiously sacrificed by the Jews. Suitably, therefore, to the fourteenth day, on which He also suffered, in the morning, the chief priests and the scribes, who brought Him to Pilate, did not enter the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might freely eat the passover in the evening. With this precise determination of the days both the whole Scriptures agree, and the Gospels harmonize. The resurrection also attests it. He certainly rose on the third day, which fell on the first day of the weeks of harvest, on which the law prescribed that the priest should offer up the sheaf.

The problem is that his use of the terminology is incorrect. The 'day of preparation' is the 14th according to the Samaritans. The Jews don't use this terminology.

JoeWallack · 03-16-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

(Jn 19:14) And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

JW:
We've already seen that based on usage:

1) "Mark" always and many times uses the underlying word of 15:42 to refer to the weekly Sabbath. In contrast, there is no known ancient author who ever used the offending word to refer to the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread. So "Mark" has written exactly like we would have expected him to if he was referring to the weekly Sabbath.

In addition, the subsequent narrative context shows that the weekly Shabbat is being referred to.

The next problem for you is that if "Mark" was referring to the day before The Feast of Unleavened Bread as "The Preparation Day" this means that he was referring to Passover as "The Preparation Day". Since Passover is exponentially more important than the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread, it would be strange/bizarre/macabre to refer to it as a Preparation Day for a less important holiday. Not to mention, he has already referred to Passover as "Passover".

Regarding John 19:14 I would think that spin has already addressed this but wading through the crap here reminds me too much of the classic Cheborneck so:

http://biblos.com/john/19-14.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
1510 [e]	ēn	ἦν	it was	V-II-3S
1161 [e]	de	δὲ	now	Conj
3904 [e]	paraskeuē	παρασκευὴ	the day of preparation	N-NFS
3588 [e]	tou	τοῦ	of the	Art-GMS
3957 [e]	pascha	πάσχα	passover;	Aram
5610 [e]	hōra	ὥρα	[the] hour	N-NFS
1510 [e]	ēn	ἦν	was	V-II-3S
5613 [e]	hōs	ὡς	about	Adv
1623 [e]	hektē	ἕκτη	the sixth.	Adj-NFS
2532 [e]	kai	καὶ	and	Conj
3004 [e]	legei	λέγει	he says	V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]	tois	τοῖς	to the	Art-DMP
2453 [e]	Ioudaiois	Ἰουδαίοις	Jews,	Adj-DMP
3708 [e]	Ide	Ἴδε	Behold	V-AMA-2S
3588 [e]	ho	ὁ	the	Art-NMS
935 [e]	basileus	βασιλεὺς	king	N-NMS
4771 [e]	hymōn	ὑμῶν	of you!	PPro-G2P

Note that "John" explains that the Preparation is for the Passover lest some Hellenized Stooge think it was for Shabbat.

KJB, you are trying to explain to us what "Mark" meant by changing what "Mark" meant. Isn't there some kind of penalty for that according to The Christian Bible?

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

DCHindley · 03-16-2013, 10:26 AM

Spin,

You know that this passage is about baking & boiling the manna that miraculously sprung up in the wilderness trek, don't you?

(RSV Exo 16:11-20) 11 And the LORD said to Moses,
12 "I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, `At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'"
13 In the evening quails came up and covered the camp; and in the morning dew lay round about the camp.
14 And when the dew had gone up, there was on the face of the wilderness a fine, flake-like thing, fine as hoarfrost on the ground.
15 When the people of Israel saw it, they said to one another, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, "It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.
16 This is what the LORD has commanded: `Gather of it, every man of you, as much as he can eat; you shall take an omer apiece, according to the number of the persons whom each of you has in his tent.'"
17 And the people of Israel did so; they gathered, some more, some less.
18 But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.
19 And Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it till the morning."
20 But they did not listen to Moses; some left part of it [i.e., the manna] till the morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.

Isn't this rather a lesson to the Israelites not to gather more than just an omer of mana for each individual each morning? Gathering more than enough mana was fruitless as the heat of the day melted it and by the next day it had rotted. When God miraculously provides a double portion of mana on the 6th day, however, he also miraculously preserves it fresh to the 7th day.

The quail (mentioned first, BTW) are harvested in the evening ( בעֶ֔רֶב "evening") and the mana (mentioned second) in the morning ( בֹּ֗קֶר "morning").

The "day" ( הַיּ֔וֹם ) is a period of time, most often used for what we might say is a 24hr period. It will have both an evening & a morning in whatever order you want to use.

day of week, morning epoch	morning	evening
1st	mana (omer each)	quail (caught in nets?)
2nd	mana (omer each)	quail (caught in nets?)
3rd	mana (omer each)	quail (caught in nets?)
4th	mana (omer each)	quail (caught in nets?)
5th	mana (omer each)	quail (caught in nets?)
6th	mana (2 omers each)	quail (caught in nets?)
7th	Yes, we have no man(an)ah to-daay♫	Not stated

day of week, evening epoch	evening	morning
1st	quail (caught in nets?)	mana (omer each)
2nd	quail (caught in nets?)	mana (omer each)
3rd	quail (caught in nets?)	mana (omer each)
4th	quail (caught in nets?)	mana (omer each)
5th	quail (caught in nets?)	mana (omer each)
6th	quail (caught in nets?)	mana (2 omers each)
7th	Not stated	Yes, we have no man(an)ah to-daay♫

I don't think that it makes any difference if you assume evening or morning epoch.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

... I'd like to return to when the day started in early Jewish tradition. Ken Brown seems to think against the textual indications I've already provided that the Jews always had a day which started in the evening. This is not so. To demonstrate this once again, let's look at [COLOR="Red"]Ex 16:

21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the Lord commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said [on the sabbath], "because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."

Here on the sixth day we see the preparation of food for the sabbath. It was cooked the day before because no cooking was allowed on the sabbath. It was to be left until the morning and miraculously there were no maggots. It wasn't prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning. The day ran from morning to morning as all indications I've posted this far have shown.

Ken Brown needs the day to start in the evening otherwise he cannot make his faith-based argument work.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

(Jn 19:14) And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

JW:
We've already seen that based on usage:

1) "Mark" always and many times uses the underlying word of 15:42 to refer to the weekly Sabbath. In contrast, there is no known ancient author who ever used the offending word to refer to the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread. So "Mark" has written exactly like we would have expected him to if he was referring to the weekly Sabbath.

In addition, the subsequent narrative context shows that the weekly Shabbat is being referred to.

The next problem for you is that if "Mark" was referring to the day before The Feast of Unleavened Bread as "The Preparation Day" this means that he was referring to Passover as "The Preparation Day". Since Passover is exponentially more important than the first day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread, it would be strange/bizarre/macabre to refer to it as a Preparation Day for a less important holiday. Not to mention, he has already referred to Passover as "Passover".

Regarding John 19:14 I would think that spin has already addressed this but wading through the crap here reminds me too much of the classic Cheborneck so:

http://biblos.com/john/19-14.htm

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
1510 [e]	ēn	ἦν	it was	V-II-3S
1161 [e]	de	δὲ	now	Conj
3904 [e]	paraskeuē	παρασκευὴ	the day of preparation	N-NFS
3588 [e]	tou	τοῦ	of the	Art-GMS
3957 [e]	pascha	πάσχα	passover;	Aram
5610 [e]	hōra	ὥρα	[the] hour	N-NFS
1510 [e]	ēn	ἦν	was	V-II-3S
5613 [e]	hōs	ὡς	about	Adv
1623 [e]	hektē	ἕκτη	the sixth.	Adj-NFS
2532 [e]	kai	καὶ	and	Conj
3004 [e]	legei	λέγει	he says	V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]	tois	τοῖς	to the	Art-DMP
2453 [e]	Ioudaiois	Ἰουδαίοις	Jews,	Adj-DMP
3708 [e]	Ide	Ἴδε	Behold	V-AMA-2S
3588 [e]	ho	ὁ	the	Art-NMS
935 [e]	basileus	βασιλεὺς	king	N-NMS
4771 [e]	hymōn	ὑμῶν	of you!	PPro-G2P

Note that "John" explains that the Preparation is for the Passover lest some Hellenized Stooge think it was for Shabbat.

KJB, you are trying to explain to us what "Mark" meant by changing what "Mark" meant. Isn't there some kind of penalty for that according to The Christian Bible?

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Hi Joseph, no, Mark is not referring to the weekly Shabbat in Mark 15:42, and no matter how many times you try to infer that he is, it just isn't going to make it happen. You see, you do not have the proper mentality about the Shabbat of Nissan 15, it is a Shabbat that requires preparation for as the Passover had to be sacrificed. The 1st Day of Chag Ha'Matzot is the Shabbat counted from for Shavuot, and you have NO ANSWER for this Truth. KB

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 11:50 AM

"Truth" with a capital T. Crazy

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 03:00 PM

The followers of Mark (= Marcosians) have the same system as Clement:

Quote:

And for this reason did Moses declare that man was formed on the sixth day; and then, again, according to arrangement, it was on the sixth day, which is the preparation (= paraskeue cf. Mark 15:42), that the last man appeared, for the regeneration of the first, Of this arrangement, both the beginning and the end were formed at that sixth hour, at which He was nailed to the tree [Irenaeus 15:42]

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03-16-2013, 08:17 AM	#122
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Living in a strange world? How much of the world's Jewish population believes, accepts, and teaches that the Scriptural Seventh Day Sabbath begins at sunrise on Saturday morning? How much of the world's Jewish population believes, accepts, and teaches that the Scriptural Seventh Day Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday, the sixth day of the week? How much of the world's Christian population believes, accepts, and teaches that the Jews Sabbath begins at the sunset of Friday afternoon ? How much of the world's population believes accepts and teaches that the Jews Sabbath begins at sunrise on Satuday morning ? There is only one person that I know of that argues for the morning sunrise interpretation of these texts, against the billions that believe, accept, and teach that the Scriptural Seventh Day Sabbath of the Jews begins at sunset on Friday, the sixth day of the week. Anyone that so interprets the Scriptural texts as to believe The Scriptual Seventh Day Sabbath begins at sunrise on the Seventh Day of the week, on Saturday morning, is one who is living in a very strange world.

03-16-2013, 08:58 AM	#123
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Forgetting for a moment this guy. For the sake of intellectual sport. Wouldn't a community with a 364 day calendar always have the 14th on a Sabbath? If the first of the first fell on the first day of the week doesn't that mean that the 14th always falls on the seventh day? Just for argument's sake.

03-16-2013, 11:50 AM	#129
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	"Truth" with a capital T. Crazy

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