Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 02-16-2012, 05:06 AM

Grammatically the two phrases say the exact same thing. In Greek, word order is not as important as inflection. This is why interlinear translations (English gloss directly under each Greek word) take a little getting used to, as it comes across a bit like the way Yoda speaks in Star Wars movies.

If anyone wants to see what I am talking about, go to this online interlinear at www.scripture4all.org.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

It was the website I quoted that made the connection between Acts and Ignatius. I simple referenced it. As to it being a legitimate connection - the best that could probably be said is that the question is an open one. As to the translation itself, I did, in post #24, provide one. In that translation the words in question have been set apart. Whether that is an acceptable method of translating the words I don't know.

Thanks MaryHelena, for your reply. It is not my intention to criticize you for employing quotation marks, but, I do wish to indicate that Lightfoot's English version of his copy of the Greek manuscript (of origin unknown to me) of Mag 5:1 in the excellent book by Holmes, employs no such method of distinguishing this phrase, either in Greek or in English.

By setting it apart, with quotes, or underline symbols, the writer of the web site above, is drawing a conclusion that remains unclear, at least to me. One requires a thorough linguistic analysis of the two distinct Koine Greek phrases, to assert equality of meaning. I cannot provide that.

maryhelena · 02-16-2012, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

It was the website I quoted that made the connection between Acts and Ignatius. I simple referenced it. As to it being a legitimate connection - the best that could probably be said is that the question is an open one. As to the translation itself, I did, in post #24, provide one. In that translation the words in question have been set apart. Whether that is an acceptable method of translating the words I don't know.

Thanks MaryHelena, for your reply. It is not my intention to criticize you for employing quotation marks, but, I do wish to indicate that Lightfoot's English version of his copy of the Greek manuscript (of origin unknown to me) of Mag 5:1 in the excellent book by Holmes, employs no such method of distinguishing this phrase, either in Greek or in English.

By setting it apart, with quotes, or underline symbols, the writer of the web site above, is drawing a conclusion that remains unclear, at least to me. One requires a thorough linguistic analysis of the two distinct Koine Greek phrases, to assert equality of meaning. I cannot provide that.

The issue is not what the writer of the website has done - i.e. connecting these few words with Acts. The issue seems to hinge on why Lightfoot set the words apart in his 1891 translation. The translation now on the website:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...lightfoot.html

(from: _Apostolic Fathers_ Lightfoot & Harmer, 1891 translation)

tanya · 02-16-2012, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

The issue is not what the writer of the website has done - i.e. connecting these few words with Acts. The issue seems to hinge on why Lightfoot set the words apart in his 1891 translation.

Clear, well expressed, thanks. Here's what Michael Homes writes, in his "Preface to the Third Edition", page xi-xii, dated 2007:

Quote:

This third edition, then, while genetically descended from the 1891 Lightfoot-Harmer diglot edition, is in effect a fresh and comprehensive revision.

I interpret Holmes' statement here, as suggesting that the former tradition of highlighting this phrase, and claiming that it originates with Acts, is untenable in terms of the Greek manuscripts.

Maybe I am over interpreting, out of ignorance. Quite possible. Maybe Holmes has simply failed to appreciate the distinction offered by Lightfoot, it is easy to overlook a few extra symbols here and there, in the process of revision.

My assumption is that Holmes is politely suggesting that Lightfoot erred, and that there is no overlap between the two, i.e. no evidence of identity between the passage in Acts 1:25, and the phrase in Ignatius' letter to Magnesians 5:1.

Both versions have "...to his own place", as the English interpretation of the two different Greek phrases. The phrase, in Acts 1:25 is focused on Judas, with the implication that Judas was en route to Hell, as "his own place", while, in my most unlearned opinion, the letter from Ignatius is unrelated to Judas, instead relating the future for all people, choosing between faith in the divinity of Jesus, and those who have been

Quote:

deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, ...[which are] worthless.

Ignatius goes on, Mag 5:8 to warn against participation with Jews:

Quote:

For if we continue to live in accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace.

willingtolearn · 02-16-2012, 06:16 AM

Are Acts and Luke truly written by the same Author??

maryhelena · 02-16-2012, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

The issue is not what the writer of the website has done - i.e. connecting these few words with Acts. The issue seems to hinge on why Lightfoot set the words apart in his 1891 translation.

Clear, well expressed, thanks. Here's what Michael Homes writes, in his "Preface to the Third Edition", page xi-xii, dated 2007:

Quote:

This third edition, then, while genetically descended from the 1891 Lightfoot-Harmer diglot edition, is in effect a fresh and comprehensive revision.

I interpret Holmes' statement here, as suggesting that the former tradition of highlighting this phrase, and claiming that it originates with Acts, is untenable in terms of the Greek manuscripts.

Nowhere, as far as I'm aware, does Lightfoot claim that these few words are connected with Acts. The Lightfoot translation, as of 1891, has, for want of a better description, 'highlighted' these few words. The one who has claimed a connection is the website I referenced earlier. If there is a new translation that does not 'highlight' these few words - all well and good.

Quote:

Maybe I am over interpreting, out of ignorance. Quite possible. Maybe Holmes has simply failed to appreciate the distinction offered by Lightfoot, it is easy to overlook a few extra symbols here and there, in the process of revision.

My assumption is that Holmes is politely suggesting that Lightfoot erred, and that there is no overlap between the two, i.e. no evidence of identity between the passage in Acts 1:25, and the phrase in Ignatius' letter to Magnesians 5:1.

Both versions have "...to his own place", as the English interpretation of the two different Greek phrases. The phrase, in Acts 1:25 is focused on Judas, with the implication that Judas was en route to Hell, as "his own place", while, in my most unlearned opinion, the letter from Ignatius is unrelated to Judas, instead relating the future for all people, choosing between faith in the divinity of Jesus, and those who have been

Quote:

deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, ...[which are] worthless.

Ignatius goes on, Mag 5:8 to warn against participation with Jews:

Quote:

For if we continue to live in accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace.

maryhelena · 02-16-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willingtolearn

Are Acts and Luke truly written by the same Author??

From a man who has spent 30 years in the study of Acts:

Quote:

The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story: Richard I. Pervo (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Deriving history from Acts is an enterprise fraught with difficulty. I firmly maintain that Luke the Historian has very little to wear and have striven to demonstrate the point, but I shall not close without acknowledging my admiration (and even envy) for the splendid outfit worn by Luke the author. In that costume lurk mysteries galore, and because of it the story of Christian origins is more mysterious than ever. Page 156.

willingtolearn · 02-16-2012, 07:53 AM

What:huh:

maryhelena · 02-16-2012, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willingtolearn

What:huh:

02-16-2012, 08:30 AM	#89
willingtolearn Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 19	so....no:constern01:

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02-16-2012, 06:16 AM	#84
willingtolearn Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 19	Are Acts and Luke truly written by the same Author??

02-16-2012, 07:53 AM	#87
willingtolearn Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 19	What:huh:

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