norma98026

Hi derrida,

It sounds like the issue here is that you believe that if the God of the Bible exists, then he isn't being fair in his judgment of people who doubt because he never doubted. Is that what you're saying?

Norma

Eldarion Lathria

Because he spoke of kingdoms. Apparently Satan did not show Jesus the territory between the Adura and the Ebro either.

And there is no mountain high enough where you could see all the kingdoms of the earth, no you can't even do it from space, because the Earth is round.

Eldarion Lathria

derrida

Hi Norma,

Not quite, but close.

I'm sure, in this case, you might argue that I have never murdered someone or been murdered and yet I condemn the practice. My problem with God's judgment of those who doubt is that the fundamental experience of doubting, of uncertainty, is something God could never fully appreciate. For instance, to use my murder analogy, while I have not been murdered I live under that threat, however slim. I am at least vulnerable. I understand the fear it produces because, for me, it is a possibility.

God, however, cannot possibly experience doubt - or a whole range of emotions, in fact, if he is considered omniscient. How can that being judge those who have undergone an experience that for him does not even rise to the level of possibility?

pilli

Do you think God ever says,

There's got to be more to life than this?

norma98026

You make some interesting points, derrida. I suppose we could also say human judges who haven't experienced everything we've experienced are unfit to judge us. Yet they're all we have. If God, the Supreme Being, exists, he's the only God we have.

Jesus knew about doubting. Thomas, one of his followers, voiced his doubts about the resurrection, saying,

"Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." - John chapter 20

I don't know how God knows what he does. Since he created us, it makes sense that he does know our capabilities. He's not, however, a being who reveals everything he knows to us. We wouldn't possibly be able to ingest the knowledge of an infinite being who knows everything in the entire universe. (I can hardly keep up with this week's news.) Instead, he gives us enough information to involve our intellect as well as our hearts. He lets us know there's more to life than meets the eye, that we're more than material beings. He's the one who gives us that niggling feeling that there's something beyond ourselves, something yet to come.

Norma in Seattle

derrida

Certainly human judges are fallible -- though they are the best arbiters of justice we have. But I would argue that a judge, even if he had not had similar experiences, could have a greater understanding of the criminal's mindset than God.

The human judge is well acquainted with the basics: happiness, sorrow, guilt, pleasure, doubt, etc. An omniscient god, on the other hand, would only have knowledge of these things (like a man has knowledge of childbirth) -- not experience. And while the human judge's decision can change the entire course of a person's life, it's still only temporary. God, on the other hand, is supposed to be looking into our souls and judging us for eternity. On that level, it would not be encouraging to note that God only has textbook knowledge of doubt and could not possibly appreciate what it feels like to be genuinely undecided.

Precisely. He knew of doubting, nothing more.


Honestly, I could use a little more.

I'm not beyond admitting that the "niggling feeling" is quite common, but I think Christians and other believers do a great disservice to themselves and the community when they pretend to know exactly what that "something yet to come" is.

norma98026

Hi pilli,

Whether or not you were serious, that's a good question, similar to the question of what God's purpose is.

God is not bored. The essence of his being is inextricably tied to his existence. When God told Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt, this exchange took place.

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " (Exodus chapter 3)

Hundreds of years later, Jesus told the people of his day something similar.

"...Before Abraham was born, I am!" (John chapter 8)

God has no need for anything or anyone.
Why, then, does he love us?

Norma in Seattle

norma98026

I don't know how Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. It could have been that when Satan took Jesus to the mountain, Satan knew that Jesus, God-become-man, could supernaturally see all the kingdoms that existed and would ever exist in the future. The Bible doesn't explain how it was done. We know, however, how it could be accomplished today -- by video cams.

Norma

norma98026

Hello derrida,

I don't know specifically what you're referring to. Did I give you the impression I'm pretending to know what's coming? Or are you talking about someone else?

If a believer pretends to know the future, it's indeed a disservice and makes any faith sound hollow. But phoney Christians fool only themselves. According to the Bible, God knows what's in the human heart, and he will mete out justice (in his time) upon those who are dishonest.

The bottom line, however, is not what Christians say but what Christ himself says about what's to come. He's the one who claimed to know exactly what the future holds and how to get there.

Jesus said, "I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John chapter 14)

Jesus commanded Christians to tell everyone about him, particularly about his death and resurrection. Despite the mistakes Christians make in doing this, people do come to faith, strangely enough, not because Christians are involved, but because God unleashes his power to save people through his message of love and redemption.

Norma in Seattle

derrida

Hey Norma,

But don't you see that's the same thing?

It doesn't matter whether you believe you actually know the future or you think the religious figure you believe in knows the future. Either way, you think you (whether by direct knowledge, or secondary knowledge through Jesus and the Bible) have a handle on that "something to come" when the reality is that thing, whatever it is, is completely unknowable. That is the very function of the future.