Godwithus

So in other words you are saying the predictions of Yeshua post date the Bar Kochba revolt? Or during it? Then why wasnt Kochba in the texts,the Messiah rather than Yeshua? Indeed why isnt he mentioned at all nor Domition?


If written afterwards...why would they have Christ returning during this event, after the obvious fact he did not? Unless their writings isnt about AD 70, which gives modern Israel a very important place in scripture...or if about AD 70 (unlikely)...then the writings were written pre-AD 70.....pick your poison.

Toto

There has never been an apocalypic prophet (and there have been many) or any of his followers (also many) who have been at all fazed by the failure of the prophecy. You can't assume anything based on the text containing a prophecy that didn't pan out.

Godwithus

Indeed, in their rabid pursuit to convert people...why would they include a huge false prophecy into the Texts? The return of Jesus after all is the most important doctrine in Christianity....if he didnt show up in AD 70 (for those holding to the AD 70 view), why include this "false Prophecy" in the Texts years afterwards?


I mean why not alter them to have Christ coming after AD 70?


This is basic common sense here folks...which is quite surprising that the "scholars" cant see this loud contradiction in their own reasoning. If I wanted to create prophecy texts...I sure wouldnt fabricate an obvious false prophecy from a past event....I mean thats just stupid...And it is equally stupid to think the Gospel authors would have.



Afterwards...not about AD 70...Before....an obviously earlier date for the Texts...take your pick.

Joan of Bark

Why would those who wrote the Gospels allow so many contradictions into their text? Who the hell knows? They weren't rational, they weren't thinking clearly, they weren't able to accurately relate their beliefs or those of others. Why do Christians today hold so many contradictory views? Because the Bible is vague, ambiguous, and contradictory.

And why would Jesus spout a prophecy to his followers that wouldn't come true for thousands of years? Why would anyone at that time give a shit?

Toto

One explanation is that it was written for the current generation (after 70 CE) even if it was set in 30 CE, since everyone knew that it wasn't to be taken literally.

And conversion was not from reading the gospel. It was from social factors, providing medical care, taking in orphans and supporting widows, etc.

The gospel writers did not have your mindset. And you are not the first to notice the problem.

Your two choices have the implication that either the gospels were written very late and are a confused mess, or Jesus was a false prophet. Either or both would work for the average nonbeliever.

Godwithus

I see you are having great difficulty in trying to explain this...I hate to inform you sir that you have utterly failed...horribly.



The return of Christ not to be taken literally? And dear sir, where can I find such a view from the NT writers?




I converted from reading the texts...and so did many others in the NT stories.





So what do you believe? Before or after?

judge

When the NT writers use texts from the hebrew bible that were not literal then the obvious implication is that they didnt mean them literally.

Look as just one example at Isaiah 13

1 A prophecy against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:................


9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins. ....


17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants,
nor will they look with compassion on children.

This is non literal description of something centuries before christ. It is a poetic form of language to describe a judgement of god, or the babylonians experiencing a bad time at the hands of the Medes..

Now compare this with say mark 13


24 “But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

The same poetic language is used to describe the romans destroying Jerusalem. The "lights go out" for Jerusalem, judgement occurs.

We can find the same kind of language in the hebrew bible about god riding on clouds, but it is just poetry. No one ever saw god riding on the clouds. The same kind of descriptions happen in other ancient cultures, not just the hebrews.

Toto

Who are those writers? We don't know. But they did leave some major clues that they were writing theological allegories, not straight reporting. The authors of Matthew and Luke felt free to rewrite details from Mark, which is a pretty sure indication that they didn't think the text was literal. And then there are all of the miracles, and the references to Greek myths and the Hebrew bible. No one thought that the text was to be interpeted literally until the modern era.

I don't think so. Sociologists have studied the conversion process, and it starts with human contact and social connections. The texts are used to rationalize a decision that was made for other reasons.

I think the texts were written very late.

Godwithus

Actually when Jesus went up into the clouds in front of the Apostles...it was clearly literal...and so was his said return by the Angels...literally coming in the clouds.


Rev. 1


The NT writers believe these to be literal...not poetic.

judge

Sorry it doesnt say he "went up into the clouds". It says..."and a cloud hid him from their sight."





Rev. 1

..well how will those who pieced him see him if he is still to return and if it is a literal event?
How for goodness akes will "every eye " see him?
They are dead! They arent living earthly lives.