Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JohNeo · 08-25-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDS

I'm no expert on crime and crime prevention. However, I don't think many peopkle define 'crime" as "something African Americans do", although certainly the tough sentencing laws for "crack" as opposed to powdered cocaine make it obvious that there is some bigotry involved. My guess is that the horrendous crime rates and incarceration rates in the African American communities are partly due to black peole defining "laws" as "something white people pass, which we have no vested interest in supporting or following." Black alienation is probably (and I'm just guessing, again) as important as white bigotry in explaining why so many black men are in prison. After all, why SHOULD black people respect whitey's laws?

I agree completely that tough mandatory sentencing laws hae not been proven to serve as a deterrent, and that prison is often a breeding ground for criminal behavior (both in the prisons, and after people have been released). However, it is certainly also true that keeping 2 million people off the streets prevents them from commiting crimes on the streets.

Laws are cultural institutions, and (it seems to me) cultural solutions to crime are the only solutions that will work (as opposed to sociological or economic solutions).

I would venture to postulate (no time to research but comments are welcome) that mandatory sentencing laws raise the risk level and thus the price of drugs more than anything, and that in turn has an effect on the extent of crime which hardcore addicts will commit to obtain more drugs. Would anyone have any information to support or refute my claim?

JohNeo

Mughal · 08-25-2004, 01:56 PM

Islam, what is it?

To know, one needs to visit sites and forums that have been established by ex-muslims eg http://www.faithfreedom.org http://www.secularislam.org or http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/posts/index.htm etc etc.

In short islam is what we find in the quran and the hadith (the islamic scriptures) as interpreted by religious leaders of individual islamic sects eg shia, sunni etc etc.

The quran states that all muslims must obey their leader from among themselves 4/59. The leaders must obey Allah and his messenger.

The quran and hadith state that children are to obey their parents, wives are to obey their husbands and slaves are to obey their masters 4/34, 29/8, 31/14 etc.

Having such a control system, structures and practices as dictated by islam, why should islam not be blamed for whatever muslims say or do when it is all dictated or sanctioned by the scriptures no matter how you interpret them?

Here is what Huma says about shariah courts in Canada http://www.nosharia.com/eng.htm

and join the protest against shariah courts in Canada.

jbernier · 08-25-2004, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Life

I don't think so. You agree that religion is man made. I am assuming you believe there is some deity on which to base this creation.

Not necessarily; because a creation references something else does not mean that said creation is based upon that which it references.

Quote:

In short, all statements about religion are man-made; not all, however, are equally accurate statements about religion.

Not exactly what I said. What I said is that the fact that something is man-made is not a priori evidence that does not reference reality in some sort of accurate or meaningful way. For instance, atomic theory is a creation; it was developed by human beings in a historically explicable fashion. However that does not mean that atoms are unreal. The fact that something is the product of human practice and thought does not necessarily mean that it is meaningless or inaccurate.

jbernier · 08-25-2004, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodstock memories

Showing myself, like you yourself, to be "<edited for consistency>" would appear to be a badge of honor.

Indeed.

Quote:

To me, execution is an overreaction in all situations.

Actually, it isn't the taking of *life* per se that gets me riled - it is the snuffing out of sentience.

I would be inclined to agree.

Quote:

What disgusts me about the Iran story, even more than the horrible particulars of the state sanctioned murder of children, is that in the 21st century there are still some people that believe that destroying a unique, thinking person is a morally correct decision.

I definitely agree. It is the very idea of capital punishment that I find reprehensible. The particulars are not that relevant insofar as, imho, no execution of an individual by a state is morally justifiable. 16 year old girl or 50 man, does not matter - reprehensible is reprehensible.

jbernier · 08-25-2004, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDS

However, it is certainly also true that keeping 2 million people off the streets prevents them from commiting crimes on the streets.

How about (and I know that this is a crazy idea) identifying those social conditions under which people are most likely to commit specific sorts of crimes and then working to mitigate those conditions? In other words, finding ways to prevent the offences and the resultant incarceration from the get go.

jbernier · 08-25-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mughal

To know, one needs to visit sites and forums that have been established by ex-muslims eg http://www.faithfreedom.org http://www.secularislam.org or http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/posts/index.htm etc etc.

And in so doing one needs to keep in mind that ex-Muslims are not without their biases. Does not necessarily invalidate what they have to say but neither does it make them the final authorities on the Islamic faith.

Bright Life · 08-25-2004, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

Not necessarily; because a creation references something else does not mean that said creation is based upon that which it references.

Um...okay, so what are you talking about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

Not exactly what I said. What I said is that the fact that something is man-made is not a priori evidence that does not reference reality in some sort of accurate or meaningful way. For instance, atomic theory is a creation; it was developed by human beings in a historically explicable fashion. However that does not mean that atoms are unreal. The fact that something is the product of human practice and thought does not necessarily mean that it is meaningless or inaccurate.

I didn't say it was. I said if you create a set of rules based on even older rules made by someone else (say, you design the FLARP religion), then your interpretation of FLARP is, by definition, correct, because, you created it!

Bright Life · 08-25-2004, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

And in so doing one needs to keep in mind that ex-Muslims are not without their biases. Does not necessarily invalidate what they have to say but neither does it make them the final authorities on the Islamic faith.

Well, then who is?

Bright Life · 08-25-2004, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

How about (and I know that this is a crazy idea) identifying those social conditions under which people are most likely to commit specific sorts of crimes and then working to mitigate those conditions? In other words, finding ways to prevent the offences and the resultant incarceration from the get go.

:thumbs: A MUCH better way to work things out, IMO.

BL

winstonjen · 08-25-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River

How is this Religion?

It has nothing to do with religious edicts....

It is an isolated case where a ego-centric judge was exploiting his authority to get back at those with a "sharp -tongue".....

--River

Maybe not, but people in charge of theocracies are usually able to do what they want.

Maybe Iran should be liberated when the new president takes over. No way he could do a worse job than Bush.

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08-25-2004, 01:56 PM	#102
Mughal Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Islamabad, Pakistan & Glasgow, UK Posts: 1,525	Islam, what is it? To know, one needs to visit sites and forums that have been established by ex-muslims eg http://www.faithfreedom.org http://www.secularislam.org or http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/posts/index.htm etc etc. In short islam is what we find in the quran and the hadith (the islamic scriptures) as interpreted by religious leaders of individual islamic sects eg shia, sunni etc etc. The quran states that all muslims must obey their leader from among themselves 4/59. The leaders must obey Allah and his messenger. The quran and hadith state that children are to obey their parents, wives are to obey their husbands and slaves are to obey their masters 4/34, 29/8, 31/14 etc. Having such a control system, structures and practices as dictated by islam, why should islam not be blamed for whatever muslims say or do when it is all dictated or sanctioned by the scriptures no matter how you interpret them? Here is what Huma says about shariah courts in Canada http://www.nosharia.com/eng.htm and join the protest against shariah courts in Canada.

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