aa5874

Then why is it is we have no persecutuion of Christians by the Romans when the so-called Jesus Christ was alive, travelling all over the region with his political associates. If the so-called political leader is alive and have followers of large numbers, it is reasonable to think that the Romans would have at least arrested Jesus or threathening him with death, yet the Gospels do not mention one time that Jesus was arrested by the Romans or even warned to desist.

If you read all the writings of Flavius Josephus, there is no mention of Christians or the Romans executing Christians. In the supposed trial of Jesus, Pontius Pilate declared that he found no fault in this Jesus and didn't not even know why they had brought Jesus to be tried by him. Even in the book of Acts, we have Jews persecuting Christians, not Romans.

The NT reads in Luke 23:8, 'And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him, and he had hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.

Again, nothing about illegal political association, Herod wanted to see the so-called greatest miracle worker do some miracles.

Did the Romans kill Marcion, the celebrated herectic Christian, or they only executed Christians who believed in the Trinity?

In 'Against heresies' by Irenaeus,book 1 ch23, this is written about Simon the socerer (Acts 8:9) Here we have a phenomenal magician, according to Irenaeus, who claims to be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet he is honored by Claudius Caesar, not executed.

I just cannot understand why these so-called Christians are being persecuted and prosecuted by the Romans, when the leader, Jesus Christ was even warned about any illegal activity, according to the Gospels.






Were these non-Romans of the Jewish nationality?

aa5874

And Pliny's letter does not reflect Flavius Josephus writings with respect to Christians. Josephus simple have never heard of Christians, he has travelled the region, he even joined some sect and was aware of the various groups, yet he never came across the followers of the Christ, or even the persecution of the Christians.

Ben C Smith

There are many layers of misunderstanding in this question. I am sorry. I do not have the time to address them all.

1. I do not think that Jesus had as many followers as the gospels make out.
2. Jesus worked mainly in Galilee under Antipas. When he went to Judea, the Romans did arrest him in fairly short order.

I have read the writings of Flavius Josephus, and he refers to the Christians in book 18. But I do not want to turn this into a discussion of the Testimonium.

True. Except for the brief Neronian persecution, the Romans tended to lump Christians in with Jews for quite a while.

I do not tend to think the trial of Jesus went like that. I think the gospels are tendentious on some of those points.

Exactly. At that time the Romans tended to lump Christians in with Jews. Not exclusively, but more often than not. Christians worshipped the Jewish God, after all, and claimed that their Jesus was the Jewish messiah. The Romans saw their disagreements with the Jews as an internal Jewish affair.

I am not sure I believe that, either.

The trinity? That term? At this date?

I do not know. Pliny does not tell us. But by this time I think the Romans could certainly tell a Christian from a Jew.

Ben.

RAFH

I think you have to take any early xian writings with a grain of salt. Unless there is an authenticated manuscript, I wouldn't give any of it much credence.

S.C.Carlson

The fate of Marcion himself is unknown, but the Romans did execute Marcionites and gnostics as well as the more orthodox catholic Christians, sometimes even at the same time.

Stephen

aa5874

Where do find you that information? I was of the understanding that it was the Jews who had Jesus brought before Pilate, the Romans had no interest in Jesus, except to perform miracles, according to Luke.

It is strange you introduce an interpolation the 'Testimonium Flavium' and do want to discuss it.

S.C.Carlson

What's so strange about pointing out a necessary assumption in your assertion, "If you read all the writings of Flavius Josephus, there is no mention of Christians"?

Stephen

aa5874

But what happened in the first century, where were the Christians in the 1st century? No contemporary historian wrote about them.

S.C.Carlson

I'm not sure what you're asking. Marcion flourished in the second century; of course, there were no persecutions of Marcionites then.

Stephen

Roger Pearse

I'm not sure what you mean by an "authenticated manuscript". It sounds as if you imagine that ancient authors wrote out their works by hand themselves, and that such a copy is preserved, and that in some way it can be proved that it is the author's copy?

You may not known that none of these statements are true for any work composed in antiquity. Unless we propose to discard the classical heritage, we cannot take this line.

All the best,

Roger Pearse