Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WWJD4aKlondikeBar · 01-11-2010, 08:15 AM

I haven't been around in a while, since my decision to only debate respectfully has led to me not debating at all with people who quickly turn a closed mind into an excuse for zealotry. I do miss many things about the discussions here, but right now I just have a quick reference question.

A Reverend just said to me in a Facebook conversation, "To my knowledge, you won't find a place in the Bible where someone is reprimanded for how they felt." That just *sounds* inaccurate, though I don't immediately recall an example of thought persecution in that book. I have some running around to do today and I may recall something by the time I get back here to read some examples.

Does the Christian God model include punishment for unapproved feelings?

show_no_mercy · 01-11-2010, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattew 5

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'

28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This implies that it's sinful to even feel that another man's woman is attractive, because to do so would be committing adultery with "his heart". Of course, this is the plain reading, but your reverend friend would probably add some caveats to it to explain away the plain reading.

John Kesler · 01-11-2010, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWJD4aKlondikeBar

Does the Christian God model include punishment for unapproved feelings?

Here are a few:

Quote:

Leviticus 19:17-18
17 You shall not hate in your heart anyone of your kin; you shall reprove your neighbor, or you will incur guilt yourself. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am Yahweh.

Zechariah 7:10
10 do not oppress the widow, the orphan, the alien, or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another.

Matthew 5:21-22a
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment;

Toto · 01-11-2010, 09:03 AM

Has "Reverend" read the Ten Commandments? There's something in there about coveting, as I recall. Depending on your denomination, one or two of God's utterances concern your mental state.

Quote:

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

But is this a trick question? Do we need to find an example of YHWH smiting someone for his or her mental state, as opposed to touching the ark, picking up firewood on the Sabbath, or trying to rape angels?

brianscott1977 · 01-11-2010, 11:48 AM

In the modern post-enlightenment age we make a distinction between emotions, thoughts, and actions. This distinction was far less pronounced in the ancient world.

The biblical idea of the “heart” is a little closer to what we would the “will.” It is more than just a feeling – it involves a choice, though that choice might be fueled by emotion.

To take the example from Matthew 5 – “anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

There is a way to look at woman and recognize that she is good looking without lust being involved. There is another way of looking at a woman that is not so innocent. I don’t know if I can explain the difference, but every guy who has made it through puberty understands the difference from firsthand experience.

Looking at a woman lustfully is more than just an emotion – a choice is being made to keep looking and willfully engage in lust.

Perhaps this is the distinction that the Reverend was getting at.

01-11-2010, 08:15 AM	#1
WWJD4aKlondikeBar Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 3,076	Long time, no see, quick question. I haven't been around in a while, since my decision to only debate respectfully has led to me not debating at all with people who quickly turn a closed mind into an excuse for zealotry. I do miss many things about the discussions here, but right now I just have a quick reference question. A Reverend just said to me in a Facebook conversation, "To my knowledge, you won't find a place in the Bible where someone is reprimanded for how they felt." That just sounds inaccurate, though I don't immediately recall an example of thought persecution in that book. I have some running around to do today and I may recall something by the time I get back here to read some examples. Does the Christian God model include punishment for unapproved feelings?

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01-11-2010, 11:48 AM	#5
brianscott1977 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 192	In the modern post-enlightenment age we make a distinction between emotions, thoughts, and actions. This distinction was far less pronounced in the ancient world. The biblical idea of the “heart” is a little closer to what we would the “will.” It is more than just a feeling – it involves a choice, though that choice might be fueled by emotion. To take the example from Matthew 5 – “anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” There is a way to look at woman and recognize that she is good looking without lust being involved. There is another way of looking at a woman that is not so innocent. I don’t know if I can explain the difference, but every guy who has made it through puberty understands the difference from firsthand experience. Looking at a woman lustfully is more than just an emotion – a choice is being made to keep looking and willfully engage in lust. Perhaps this is the distinction that the Reverend was getting at.

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