Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 12-19-2003, 08:31 PM

Kosh, which of the following do you agree with? That may help the discussion.

1. The covenant, as established in Ex 24, contains 100s of commands.
2. The 10 Commandments on the first set of stone tablets is from Ex 20.
3. When Moses breaks the first set of stone tablets, the covenant needs to be restored.
4. God promises to write the same set of 10 Commandments on the new stone tablets that Moses brings. Ex 34:1.
5. God writes something in Ex 34.
6. Moses writes something in Ex 34.
7. In Ex 24:4 Moses writes the commands of the Lord. The medium is unknown, but we can assume that Moses wrote on *something*, even though it isn't listed.
8. In Ex 34, God tells Moses to write down some commands that can be found listed thru Ex 20-24.
9. What Moses writes down symbolises the re-establishment of the covenant "according to the tenor of these words".

Kosh · 12-19-2003, 09:26 PM

Oops. "GD". headache almost gone.

Quote:

Originally posted by GakuseiDon
[B]Kosh, which of the following do you agree with? That may help the discussion.

1. The covenant, as established in Ex 24, contains 100s of commands.
2. The 10 Commandments on the first set of stone tablets is from Ex 20.

Of course. "bobs your uncle"!

Quote:

3. When Moses breaks the first set of stone tablets, the covenant needs to be restored.

Doesn't make sense why they'd need the ceremony again... but OK.

Quote:

4. God promises to write the same set of 10 Commandments on the new stone tablets that Moses brings. Ex 34:1.
5. God writes something in Ex 34.
6. Moses writes something in Ex 34.

NP.

Quote:

7. In Ex 24:4 Moses writes the commands of the Lord. The medium is unknown, but we can assume that Moses wrote on *something*, even though it isn't listed.
8. In Ex 34, God tells Moses to write down some commands that can be found listed thru Ex 20-24.
9. What Moses writes down symbolises the re-establishment of the covenant "according to the tenor of these words".

I don't think this is clear at all.

I think when Doctor X posts his link, it should clear up alot. I suspect hit has to do with the multiple authorship (JEPD) issues.

Kosh · 12-19-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Exodus 34:17
"You shall make for yourself no molten gods.

1

Quote:

Exodus 34:18
"You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in the month of Abib you came out of Egypt.

2

Quote:

Exodus 34:19
"The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep.
Exodus 34:20
"You shall redeem with a lamb the first offspring from a donkey; and if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. You shall redeem all the firstborn of your sons. None shall appear before Me empty-handed.

3,4

Quote:

Exodus 34:21
"You shall work six days, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during plowing time and harvest you shall rest.

5

Quote:

Exodus 34:22
"You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

6

Quote:

Exodus 34:23
"Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
Exodus 34:24
"For I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your borders, and no man shall covet your land when you go up three times a year to appear before the LORD your God.

7

Quote:

Exodus 34:25
"You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread, nor is the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover to be left over until morning.

8

Quote:

Exodus 34:26
"You shall bring the very first of the first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk."

9,10

Kosh · 12-19-2003, 09:52 PM

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm

GakuseiDon · 12-19-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
Exodus 34:17
(snipped)

Well, that's 10 alright, but why do you start at Ex 34:17?

Aren't the commands at Ex 34:13-16 also commands? They have "you shall..." in there. They have the format of the ones in Ex 34:17 onwards. Why are they excluded?

GakuseiDon · 12-19-2003, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

GDon:

7. In Ex 24:4 Moses writes the commands of the Lord. The medium is unknown, but we can assume that Moses wrote on *something*, even though it isn't listed.
8. In Ex 34, God tells Moses to write down some commands that can be found listed thru Ex 20-24.
9. What Moses writes down symbolises the re-establishment of the covenant "according to the tenor of these words".

I don't think this is clear at all.

(7) and (8) are fairly uncontroversial IMHO. What is unclear IYO?

(9) is a continuation of (3). It's pretty clear that God is "redoing" the covenant. The covenant is established initially in Ex 24:8. The covenant is re-established from Ex 34:10.

Kosh · 12-20-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GakuseiDon
Well, that's 10 alright, but why do you start at Ex 34:17?

Because that is the same point (phrase) where the "official" list on Exodus 20 begins.

Did you read that link I posted? Here is one of the subpages, which points out that both versions actually have more than 10 commands:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm

GakuseiDon · 12-20-2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
Because that is the same point (phrase) where the "official" list on Exodus 20 begins.

Did you read that link I posted? Here is one of the subpages, which points out that both versions actually have more than 10 commands:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm

Yes, thus my challenge to your statement: "There are exactly Ten commands listed in there" (your emphasis). It's a minor point though. (I've argued on this before, and I've seen various ways that Ex 34 is grouped into 10. First the other person claims that there are "exactly" 10 commandments in Ex 34, then, when asked to back that up, they say "but in Ex 20 there aren't exactly 10"!)

How about my points (7), (8) and (9)? What is unclear about them? For (7) and (8), I have references that can easily be checked.

Doctor X · 12-20-2003, 05:34 PM

Sorry, gang, took all of the time responding to spin on another thread about inscriptions 'n stuff.

Must now watch the Patriots cremate the Jets . . . YHWH/El/Elohim/Asherah/Baal willing. . . .

Yes, Kosh, it has to do with the JEPD authors.

--J.D.

GakuseiDon · 12-20-2003, 05:41 PM

On my "God is renewing the Covenant" point, here is a study guide to Ex 34 that explains what is happening:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...70314-205.html

Quote:

B. God's reason for calling Moses up - the renew the covenant

1. (10-11) God gives His end of this bargain

2. God reminds Israel of their end of the deal
a. (12-16) Separation from the Canaanites in worship, politics, fellowship and marriage.
b. (17) Renouncement of idolatry
c. (18, 22-24) Observance of feasts - Unleavened bread, Weeks, Passover
d. (19-20) Devotion of the firstborn unto God
e. (21) Keeping of the sabbath
f. (25) Purity of sacrifice - no blood with leaven in it
g. (26) Separation from Canaanite fertility practices

3. (27-28) Moses writes the law; his miraculous fast

What Moses writes down symbolises the renewel of the Covenant (Ex 34:27 "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and Israel").

What God writes down is the 10 Commandments in Ex 20 (Ex 34:28 "And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, The Ten Commandments" - as promised in Ex 34:1, see also Deut 10:1-4 which states unambiguously that God is the one writing on the stone tablets).

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12-19-2003, 08:31 PM	#11
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Kosh, which of the following do you agree with? That may help the discussion. 1. The covenant, as established in Ex 24, contains 100s of commands. 2. The 10 Commandments on the first set of stone tablets is from Ex 20. 3. When Moses breaks the first set of stone tablets, the covenant needs to be restored. 4. God promises to write the same set of 10 Commandments on the new stone tablets that Moses brings. Ex 34:1. 5. God writes something in Ex 34. 6. Moses writes something in Ex 34. 7. In Ex 24:4 Moses writes the commands of the Lord. The medium is unknown, but we can assume that Moses wrote on something, even though it isn't listed. 8. In Ex 34, God tells Moses to write down some commands that can be found listed thru Ex 20-24. 9. What Moses writes down symbolises the re-establishment of the covenant "according to the tenor of these words".

12-19-2003, 09:52 PM	#14
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm

12-20-2003, 05:34 PM	#19
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Sorry, gang, took all of the time responding to spin on another thread about inscriptions 'n stuff. Must now watch the Patriots cremate the Jets . . . YHWH/El/Elohim/Asherah/Baal willing. . . . Yes, Kosh, it has to do with the JEPD authors. --J.D.

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