mountainman

"IMO" ...

Things we should know about the learned Doctor, Saint and Martyr Justin Martyr - one of the legions of fictitious unknown unborn non-historical literary apologetic stooges planted by the wretched Eusebius under instructions of the Pontifex Maximus between 312 and 324 CE.

I dont think either existed before the year 312 CE in which year the christian soldiers emerge from north-west with Constantine. I think they were fabricated between 312 and 324 CE for Constantine's anti-Hellenistic political agenda.

aa5874

Do you have originals of the Gospels and the Epistles?

In any event, my position is based on the writings of Justin Martyr where the writer made mention of the resurrection of Jesus from a source he called the "Memoirs of the Apostles", he did not mention any named Gospels, and I don't have originals for Justin's works.

In the writings of Justin Martyr it would appear that at around the middle of the 2nd century there were no writings in the name of Paul, or no history of the acts of Paul as found in Acts of the Apostles.

So, the Memoirs of the Apostles were first, and the Epistles last, based on Justin Martyr's writings.

dog-on

What if Paul was batting for a different team, at that time.

You know, before free agency ruined the game.

aa5874

"What if" is not a viable option for me. There must be a multiplicity of "what ifs" that can be imagined.

Justin Martyr tried to convince Trypho, the Jew, that Jesus Christ was on earth and was indeed the prophecied Messiah, yet did not mention the most prolific writer and evangelist called Paul, a Jew, who was all over the Roman Empire, including Jerusalem, speaking in tongues and carrying out miracles with the Power of the Holy Ghost of God as promised by Jesus Christ after he resurrected.

Justin used only the Memoirs of the Apostles and Revelation by John.

By the way, Justin Martyr mentioned people who were on the other side. He mentioned Simon Magus who was on some other side since the supposed time of Paul and he mentioned Marcion who some supposed was on Paul's side.

Justin simply did not mention Paul at all.

Sheshbazzar

Thanks Mountainman, at least you provide a non-evasive and decipherable opinion.

dog-on

There are those that may believe that Simon Magus is/was/could have been. none other than......Paul.

So there!:Cheeky:

aa5874

Can you point out what source of antiquity can support the notion that Simon Magus was Paul?

It would appear to me that the Pauline writings were written no less than 100 years after Simon Magus or somtime after the middle of the 2nd century.

Sheshbazzar

No, and I seriously doubt that there ever were any 'originals'. It is my belief that the books of the NT were 'organically grown' and compiled over a period of many years, with more and more 'sayings', 'stories' and 'theological' improvements incorporated as the nascent religion grew and developed its mythos.
Yes, the writings of 'Justin Martyr' do mention the practice of reading from the memoirs of the Apostles, as the several Gospel manuscripts of that time had not yet been assigned the names by which they years latter became familiar.
As far as 'originals' for any of 'Justin's' works, as MM points out, there is only one untrustworthy 'source' for this character and his alleged 'writings'.
While I believe that the evidence indicates there was a real 'Justin Martyr', it is questionable as to whether he actually wrote all of the words that good ol' Eusebius so nicely attributes to him.
A holey boat indeed, writings which you admit that don't have, in which to place all of your stock!

Appears the same to me, (and also to many others) thus I believe it evidence that some of the text attributed to Justin is authentic.
How much 'tuning up' of it Eusebius & Co. performed is the unknown.
Unless you are accepting that the 'memoirs' actually were The Gospels, you are leaving The Gospels out of your sequence.
But this sequence also opens the question, if The Apostolic writings, (whether in the form of 'Memoirs' or 'Gospels' or even BOTH) were produced and known first, WHY would 'Paul' writing last, almost never quote or refer to any of their contents, even in such cases where a simple example from these Apostolic writings, or a simple "The Lord Jesus said..." would clinch his arguments?

dog-on

Marcion, perhaps.

show_no_mercy

Isn't Marcion before Justin Martyr? Justin claimed Marcion's influence spread all around the Roman empire by the time Justin was writing. Marcion collected Paul's epistles and did not use Justin's "Memoirs" as his sole gospel.