Juststeve

Kapy:

Your goal posts are ever shifting. Most of the religions you list have founders that are in no way mythical. What they believe may be, but not the founders

The best thing for you to do is claim to have misspoke, clarify what you meant, and move on to another subject. Suggesting that Joseph Smith (Mormonism) or L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) are mythical just makes you appear foolish.

Steve

Kapyong

Gday,

Do'h - please pay attention, Juststeve.
It was the OP that made the confusion between "founder" and "based on" - by unfortunately using BOTH phrases in the OP and title - as has been made clear several times.


Or perhaps it was a deliberate conflation, as spin mentioned - because just like I predicted, we have numerous posts confused over this issue, and we can predict it will go on for pages yet. It rather looks like spin was right - because this conflation has sent Juststeve into a tailspin and now he is just NOT dealing with the issue - that most ancient religions (and many recent ones) were BASED ON mythical / fictional beings.


Everyone knows a mythical person cannot really found a religion - which I have clarified several times - didn't you read my posts about that, Juststeve ? I went out of my way to clarify the confusion, and you ignored it, then repeated the confusion.


Wrong.
In fact - the OP misspoke, and I have clarified it several times. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? My claims have never changed.


Oh dear -
In fact it is YOU who are confusing the founder with the mythical figure a religion is based on :

Mormonism is based on the angel Moroni, a mythical being - but of course J.Smith was real, and I never said otherwise.
Based on: mythical Moroni
Founded by: real J.Smith
Is that clear enough, Juststeve?


Scientology is based on the actions of Xenu and Thetans, completely mythical - but of course L.R.Hubbard was real, and I never said otherwise.
Based on : mythical Xenu and Thetans
Founded by: L.R.Hubbard
Is that clear enough, Juststeve?


Christianity was FOUNDED by Paul. (Of course Paul existed. But Christ did NOT have to exist.)
Based on: mythical Christ
Founded by: real Paul
Is that clear enough, Juststeve?


So let me recap AGAIN for people like Juststeve who can't read properly :

All religions were actually FOUNDED by real persons - obviously.

But the vast majority of religions, ancient and modern, are BASED ON worship or reverence for a mythical / fictional / spiritual beings.

Christianity based on: mythical Christ
Christianity founded by: real Paul
Is that clear enough, Juststeve?


Kapyong

aa5874

That is completely erroneous based on the "Pauline writings.

How can a PERSECUTOR of Christianity BEFORE he was a Christian also be the FOUNDER of Christianity?


Ga 1:13 - Ga 1:23 - The FOUNDER/FOUNDERS of the Jesus cult is UNKNOWN.

It would appear, based on Justin Martyr, that a Jesus story or stories were CIRCULATED sometime in the 2nd century and attributed to the Apostles of Jesus of whom there is ZERO corroboration.

Iskander

[I should have said Aleph-null or aleph-0.

I am very sorry to have been the cause of this most regrettable misunderstanding. Jesus in his infinite mercy will forgive my carelessness for which I repent and do penitence.

Iskander

Paul is a myth and could not have been the founder of Christianity. The founder of Christianity was the emperor Constantine.

Kapyong

Gday,

Actually - Constantine was a myth - the real founder of Christianity was Dionysius Exiguus.

Kapyong
;-)

aa5874

Let us NOT get carried away with FLAWED opinions that "Paul" started Christianity.

"Paul" in the very Pauline writings did NOT even make such a claim. In fact, "Paul" not ONLY claimed to be a PERSECUTOR of the FAITH but he even claimed to have met Peter, James and John who appeared to have been PILLARS of the Church.

Ga 2:9 - The evidence from "Paul" does NOT support the FLAWED opinion that he himself started Christianity.

And now look.

"Paul" claimed he was the LAST to see the resurrected Jesus.

1 Cor. 15 In Acts 9, "Paul" was converted by a BRIGHT BLINDING light AFTER Jesus had ASCENDED, AFTER the Day of Pentecost, AFTER PETER preached Jesus crucified, AFTER thousands were CONVERTED, and AFTER the STONING of Stephen.

There is NO story of antiquity that "Paul" started Christianity not even from "Paul".

Chaucer

So how did Christianity start?

Chaucer

aa5874

Well, I have a theory based on the evidence of antiquity.

My theory is that the Jesus story was written or began to circulate sometime AFTER the Fall of the Temple and AFTER the writings of Josephus or sometime at the end of the 1st century or early 2nd century.

Josephus in his Autobiography contains a story where THREE were CRUCIFIED and ONE Survived and the Gospels contain a story where THREE were Crucified and ONE eventually survived.

The ENTIRE NT CANON, including the Pauline writings, are IN RESPONSE to the FALL of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

The JEWISH TEMPLE must have already fallen for the Pauline writings to have EFFECT.

"Paul" claimed Jesus Christ was the END of the Law but such a claim would be MEANINGLESS or plain IDIOTIC while the Jewish Temple was still standing.

Further, virtually ALL disputes about Jesus Christ occurred around the middle of the 2nd century which tend to indicate that the Jesus story was UNKNOWN or hardly known at that time. It was in the late 2nd century or early third century that Tertullian ATTEMPTED to RESOLVE the question of the Flesh of Christ.


The mere fact that Justin Martyr had to explain virtually every single detail about Jesus and the Jesus movement to the Roman Emperor and Senate is an indication that the Roman Emperor and Senate KNEW very little about the Jesus movement.

And even before Justin Martyr, in a letter that may even be a forgery, Pliny the Younger did NOT even appear to know what so-called Christians BELIEVED and had to TORTURE a few to find out.

My theory is that The Jesus Movement started AFTER the "MEMOIRS of the Apostles"( as found in the writings of Justin Martyr) were written and circulated with the PREMISE that it was written by the Apostles of Jesus.

avi

Obviously a profound question, which underlies the foundations of this entire web site.....

A glib answer, such as Iskander provided, tongue in cheek, will not suffice.

A detailed reply will be ignored.

Best short answer I can come up with is this:

Christianity, like Ebionism, may indeed have a decisive starting point, but if so, I don't know when it commenced.

I do believe, and I know Iskander disagrees with me, that Constantine's role in disseminating a religion relatively similar to the one we call today Christianity, was paramount.

Christianity may have existed prior to Constantine, I cannot say, though I am cognizant of the paucity of evidence supporting a Pre-Nicean existence for Christianity, but, for sure, the religion took off, like a rocket, under Lord Constantine's administration.....

I believe that we seriously underestimate the significance of his administration, in crediting the evolution and enlargement of Christianity.

How big was Christianity before Constantine? (hint: how big was Ebionism, before Constantine?)

avi