Heathen Dawn

(deleted)

Baalthazaq

I'd like to thank everyone for responding so far. I've read them all, even if I don't have time to respond to them all. If I skip you, it is merely because I have no adequate response, in all probability despite, rather than due to, the quality of your post.

PoodleLovinPessimist:
In summary you suggest a deistic God rather than a "traditional" theistic one.

Pause to consider the impact of the change.

The unorthodox nature of my belief suggests in this case that it would be minimal, and would in turn have little effect on the overall structure of the belief system.

This is mainly due to the problem that the components I am relying upon are intrinsic to theism, rather than simply intrinsic to Islam. I could lose all of the excess philosophy, but this still does not allow me to dent the core of my belief structure with any sort of confidence.

As such, whilst this would simplify my belief structure, it does not break the cycle already presented.

I think you've restated the cycle. Perhaps the difference is the state of mind you suggest. You suggest essentially to believe I don't need it, irrespective of it's truth value.

However, the only reason this is a dilemma in the first place is that I am generally incapable of doing that. Incapable of choosing my beliefs without question.

Furthermore, I am not accepting of losing people close to me. There is no-one I have lost who I do not still mourn for. For some reason I do not seem to have the capacity to "get over" anything.

This is currently the reason I still have my faith. I know I used to believe in it, and at that time I consider myself capable of the rational thought required to hold them honestly.

This however does not mean I now hold them honestly. I just hold them.

Diana:

Hello.

I feel the same way. I used to dislike when people would write in their crisis of faith only to have either people try to save them one way or the other. It's not really what I'm looking for.

I'm unsure of how to respond, but I will give your post in particular more consideration.

Oooh, questions.

Has it played a part in my troubles:
It could be argued so, but I genuinely do not think it has.

Has it held back progress:
Certainly not in England as it does not play a powerful role here politically.
In the UAE I would argue again that it has not.

Net gain:
Hugely arguable.

In this case, I disagree completely but I suspect you mean something different to my interpretation. Isn't that just saying "Life is perfect"? I would suggest that is not the case, and that my troubles are a direct result of it not being the case.

That implies however that my position is self-inflicted in many respects. I agree that my problems are wider than my current philosophical position, however, you are suggesting that the problems other than my philosophical position are fixeable. In many respects they are not.

The reason I dropped out of college for example was because I was incapable of working on any of my projects. I was unable to concentrate adequately on any task which did not fully occupy my mind, and simultaneously did not require large amounts of relaxed thought. This means any job I could have previously had via my qualifications becomes inaccessable.

You also seem to be suggesting that essentially by curing the symptoms, I'll cure the disease. I do not believe this to be the case. At present I am trying to cure my systems of thought, in the hope that this will help cure the problem, which in a large part are interpretational.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that these symptoms are in and of themselves problems, I cannot fix them at present.



I shall have to continue later, I must leave

Clivedurdle

I bought Atheism by Julian Baggini today. On page 18 he writes

Have you for various reasons got stuck in some thought patterns? Is there a possibility that the rituals of Islam, especially the ritual prayers, are making you worse? Instead of being stuck in the laughing parts of your mind, are you stuck in....what?

Is your religion like sugar for a diabetic - might make you feel good, but...

Have you discussed your drugs, do you need everything you have been prescribed? Are you discussing your religion with your therapist, do they have appropriate experience?

Have you given up your course or taken time out?

People's abilities to deal with crises are dependent on their own resources and the resources of others they can draw on. From what you are saying, you need to connect with other support networks as some of your family and others have withdrawn.

Breaking the cycle is not for you alone. There is a saying that a child needs a village for it to grow, you are temporarily in a position of needing the support of a village, don't just choose a religious village, but talk to anyone who is sympathetic.

MrWhy

No Baalthazaq, life is far from perfect. That's not what I ment.

Reality will never disappoint or let you down because it does not promise one thing and deliver another. Fantasy does not deliver what it promises. When you have a close rapport with reality you have a more accurate definition of the problem (life in this case), and that improves your ability to resolve or deal with situations. In the classroom, the lab, business, and in life you're chances of solving a problem are reduced if you don't have an accurate definition of the problem. Imagine trying to pass a math test when the problems were incorrectly defined. Belief in a god, gods help, life after death, or other fantasies is an inaccurate picture.

Kassiana

--Do I? I thought all I was doing was suggesting that if you were homeless and jobless, two problems which IMO are more life-threatening/important than which philosophical position one takes, that solving those problems first might be your best bet. Could it also make you more able to make a good decision about what position to take? Sure. I know I don't make my best decisions when I'm downwardly mobile.

--They aren't? Wow. You must live in an even more economically depressed place than I do. I didn't think that was possible.

Baalthazaq

Kassiana:

I did not suggest there were no oppourtunities, just that I was unable to take advantage of them.

As well as the other problems mentioned I have health problems. This yesterday involved me curled up in a little ball waiting for the pain to pass for about an hour. It means I can't be more than running distance from a toilet where I spend about 2 hours a day.

Right now I'm holding back vomit because I've had a solid meal for the first time in a week.

This limits what jobs I can accept.

I have somewhere to live. The homelessness was temporary.

Heathen Dawn. Espritch.

I'm sorry I wrote a more complex post but It didn't send.
In summary: Essentially:
1) HD, I don't know you by that name. What did you change it from?
2) There's no need to fight. I recognise where I am, and I know what to expect for responses.
3) Alcoholism is part of the problem. Religion is beneficial to my state of mind which is part of the problem in my opinion. As such I think it is false to say that they are similar in this case.


4) HD specifically, I see what you're saying but I don't know if I agree yet. I have in the past given up on things (Basketball/Rugby/High Jump/Long Jump) when I had an injury to my knee, and regret now doing that. I decided that because I could not do it well I would not do it at all.

This may be a case where I am doing the same thing. I don't know yet. I'll think about it.

Anyway, I should go. Again hopefully I'll respond tomorrow when I've thought about it some more.

seebs

Well, fuck. In that state, I would say the best thing is to ignore the elaborate religious questions. I mean, if you're that sick, the question of accurate rational analysis is really beyond the scope of the question.

PoodleLovinPessimist

Baalthazaq: I didn't read the OP carefully, so I missed the part about your considerable personal difficulties. I don't like to see anyone suffer, you included.

You're worried that because you can't question your fidestic beliefs, they might not be true. Well, so what? It's more important to live and be happy than it is to be true. It looks like you have much bigger fish to fry, personally, economically and psychologically, than worrying about fine details of your epistemology.

Until your deistic, theistic and/or religious beliefs start to motivate you to do things you would otherwise consider irrational, I wouldn't worry about them so much. Worry more about how to live in the short term and how to be happy in the medium term. It's all right to defer deep philosophical questions until you're economically and psychologically stable.

Until then, I recommend you simply believe what you have to believe and don't worry too much about whether it's "true". There will be time enough for truth later on.

Clivedurdle

If you are that ill, you cannot expect to think rationally! Are you getting approprite medical help? Nursing?

Get your body right and your mind will start working. Minds cannot work with high temperatures, no food and pain!

Buffman

Hi again, my old, but very young friend.

I have read this thread with increasing concern and sadness for your current travails. Initially I was making, what I believed to be, a list of the collective poster wisdom that might offer you appropriate courses of action to eventually resolve many of your current problems, and encourage you to read and internalize the thoughts. HOWEVER, my Alert Buzzer went into a frenzy when I read the following:
...B-I-N-G-O!

My wonderful and gifted young Muslim friend, alcoholism isn't part of the problem, it is the WHOLE problem...especially for someone who considers themselves a rational, devout, Muslim. Until you gain mastery over that addiction (disease), no amount of well-intentioned wisdom or practical advice is going to be of much value.

You are in a war of survival. Try to recognize and accept that. If you attempt to win that war all by yourself, statistically, you have only a very meager chance at victory. You need to find the correct allies for timely support. Psychotherapists are very limited in effectiveness against this disease. They can prescribe chemicals for you to use as crutches; but ONLY YOU can find the necessary motivation to face and accept the realities of what this disease has done to you and what you must do to return it to the Pandora's Box from whence it came...knowing full well that it will ALWAYS be there just waiting for you to open the box again.

I sincerely wish that I could do or say more that might be of some help...but only you are capable of helping yourself...by recognizing and accepting that which is your true enemy...and seeking the appropriate allies with which to subdue him (one minute, hour, day at a time). If you are having difficulty rationally accepting a belief in a higher power as a vital ally, then perhaps you should seek one of the Secular Humanist AA organizations to help you in your quest for sobriety and a return to your productive normalcy.

(If I have misjudged the accurate nature of your condition/situation, please accept my most humbled apologies. Try to appreciate that your posts have provided me with a very strong circumstantial case. Regardless of whether my guess is right or wrong, I wish you the very best in your quest for "accurate" answers...and a happy and healthy future.)