offa

Here is a quotation from Josephus and it is not Greek, Hebrew, nor
Latin.


Ant 08-056 I have said so much out of a desire that my readers
may know that we speak nothing but the truth, and do not compose a
history out of some plausible relations, which deceive men and please
them at the same time, nor attempt to avoid examination, nor desire
men to believe us immediately; nor are we at liberty to depart from
speaking the truth, which is the proper commendation of a historian,
and yet to be blameless. But we insist upon no admission of what we
say, unless we are able to manifest its truth by demonstration and the
strongest vouchers.


Now, why would Josephus go into so much detail about telling the
Truth unless the Truth is a lie?

I am saying that Josephus is intentionally misplacing the time frame
of "Hiram of Tyre" into chapter eight. The Tyre he talks about in
chapter 8 belongs in a different time frame. If the Jewish records
are kept in Hyrcanus' Tyre then Josephus is intentionally
misleading and calling it the Truth (since the reader is led to believe the events were long before Hyrcanus). If he really is talking about
Hyrcanus' Tyre all along then Solomon and King Hiram are alias for
individuals contemporary with Josephus because he said they were located there "this day".

His strongest vouchers become pretty weak. In other words, Josephus
is a salesman and a teacher (shyster).

Amlodhi

Ant 08-056 - But we insist upon no admission of what we
say, unless we are able to manifest its truth by demonstration and the strongest vouchers.

All Josephus is saying here is that he doesn't expect any account to be accepted as truth unless it is supported by strong evidence. A concept that seems foreign to some.

Now, note again, Josephus says that the records of these epistles between king Hiram and Solomon are preserved both by the Tyrians and by "us" (the Jews). Here alone, you are specifically told that the Tyrians are not Jews, whereas, IIRC, John Hyrcanus most definitely was.

Now as to these "vouchers" or evidence which you refer to as "pretty weak", read I Kings chapter 5:

. . . . . . . . . . .

Jos. bk. 8 - "Upon which Solomon sent him (Hiram) an epistle . . ."

I Kg. 5:2 - "And Solomon sent to Hiram saying:"

. . . . . . . . . . .

Jos. bk. 8 - "Know thou that my father would have built a temple to God, but was hindered by war and continual expeditions . . ."

I Kg. 5:3 - "Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the Lord his God for the wars which were about him on every side . . ."

. . . . . . . . . . .

Jos. bk. 8 - "But I give thanks to God for the peace I at present enjoy . . ."

I Kg. 5:4 - "But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side . . ."

. . . . . . . . . . .

Jos. bk. 8 - "When Hiram had read this epistle, he was pleased with it, and wrote back this answer to Solomon."

I Kg. 5:7-8 - "And it came to pass, when Hiram heard the words of Solomon, that he rejoiced greatly . . . and Hiram sent to Solomon saying. . ."

See the pattern? The Hiram/Solomon pericopes in Jos. bk. 8 are a passage by passage paraphrase of I Kings ch. 5. These are the preserved records of these epistles that Josephus says the Jews possess. And again, he specifically states that the non- Jewish Tyrians possess their own records also.

Please follow Josephus' example and do not insist on the admission of your assertions without some strong vouchers. If you wish to continue to insist your assertions are truth, you should be prepared to explain:

1) If Josephus is talking about a pseudo-Solomon/Hiram in the Hasmonean period, why are these passages in bk. 8 not only chronologically consistent both internally and with the OT chronology, but also are an obvious paraphrasing of I Kings ch. 5? IOW, Josephus is simply re-telling I Kings ch. 5 in his own words and in the proper chronological order in his book. Or do you think that I Kings ch. 5 is cryptically prophesying Hyrcanus' tyre c. 800 yrs. before it is built?

2) As if #1 isn't a strong enough "voucher", you should be prepared to identify the persons to which Josephus is referring to as pseudo-Solomon/Hiram.

3) Not to mention, what is his purpose in doing this.

If you wish to persist, please attempt to provide some substantial support for your hypothesis. Simply repeating unsubstantiated (and unlikely) assertions only makes them increasingly more suspect.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

offa

If you wish to persist, please attempt to provide some substantial support for your hypothesis. Simply repeating unsubstantiated (and unlikely) assertions only makes them increasingly more suspect.

Namaste'

Amlodhi


I want to get back to this subject. I believe we are talking about apples and I am trying to sell oranges. Bear in mind, I do not disagree with you. Tis' the season.
I do apologise for my lewd posts. Your imput is substantial. Too often, I mix my job and my drinking with my posts here. I just gave my men Xmas and New Year's off (two weeks) and the general contractor at a development I was working them at fired us (without notice). This general will contact me in the future and beg me to bring my forces back. He is just a young man and is quite unlearned. I already have more work than I can handle as far as meeting my contracts and I have already punished (over work means over pay) my emloyees too much. Again, in this siloquy (sp) I want to reassure you, and anybody who reads this, that I am lower-than-whaleshit and thats at the bottom of the ocean.

my regards, and I will be back too soon. I create work (for my compatriots) and have my fingers crossed. I think we had a New Year's baby a few hours ago. My posts are far less than one a day and it blows my mind how some people can post a thousand times in less than a year. When I write bad things I mean good things and when I post good things I mean good things.

I like you, am pleased, and I would like to extend this geeting to all the posters here (and, that means you Toto).

One more story, please. We had a tornado last year. This one family lost everything but their lives. Took the roof off their brick house (good thing it was brick) and flattened their barn. They retrieved a whole side of the barn, let's say, about a twelve by twenty side. In huge letters they wrote "Where's Toto?.

Makes you wonder.