GakuseiDon

Buddha wasn't born of a virgin. See if you can find that on ANY Buddhist website. It seems they don't know it. His parents had been married and trying to have a baby for a few years before Buddha came along.

AFAIK, there is no myth of Dionysus turning water into wine. Source please?

Don't know about Quirrnus.

There is no myth that says Attis was born 'of a virgin'. Source please?

Don't know about Indra.

There is no myth that says Adonis was 'born of a virgin'. Source please?

Krishna was DEFINITELY not born of a virgin Devaki. An integral part of the Krishna story is that he had 6 older brothers (who were all killed by his uncle).

The claims about Buddha and Krishna are easy to verify on the web.

This is the problem: before we can look at on whether Christianity borrowed from other religions, we need to make sure that the information about the other religions are correct. There is so much bad information out there, that it feeds on itself. But don't take my word for it. Check out Buddhist and Hindu sites, and see if you can find what is claimed about them. It should take only a few minutes.

TySixtus

I see what you're saying here, but check this out. Modern followers of Buddha may disagree with this teaching, (look here) but you cannot deny that it was the MYTH (which is, of course, what we are referring to). Their reformed beliefs now indicate a maturity of spirit, one I wish Christians would cultivate. In other words, I'm not concentrating on what Buddhists believe now , as it doesn't fit in to the hypothesis of the Christian myth 'borrowing' from other myths, 2,000 years ago.

http://www.geocities.com/cas111jd/gr...s/dionysus.htm
The page is part of "The Mist", a site dedicated to 'Comparative Mythology.' Author is J. Charles Day, a known mythological scholar.


http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/mytholo...n/quirinus.htm

Simple, but thorough, walk through of Quirinus (or Quirrinus). Said to be the deified form of Romulus. Check Bulfinch's Mythology (one of the sources for that short little blurb) for more info, he goes into depth on the subject.

http://www.theoi.com/Okeanos/Saggarios.html

Born from Nana, who was impregnated by a almond plucked from a tree, grown from the genitals of Agdistis. Sounds like a Virgin Birth to me.


There was so much on this one, I couldn't list it all. Google 'Indra Virgin Birth'. Also, Bulfinchs Mythology, again, is a good one.

And

http://www.truthbeknown.com/virgin.htm

See the part about he Attis-Adonis-Osiris myth Cycle. Ishtar (Isis) is viewed as the Eternally Virgin Mother. This site is excellent, he documents all of his sources. It's kind of a big article, just do an 'Edit' --> 'Find'--> 'Devaki'
He also talks about Indra and virgin conception.

Also, I would like to clear up some semantics that might be confusing. "Born of a Virgin' and "Virgin Birth" are two different things, and I apologize for being confusing in which term I used. Virgin birth is closer to what I was looking for, I just didn't think about it and started writing. Apologies if that was confusing.

Thanks,

Ty

Bernard Muller

I am most intrigued with Dionysus changing water into wine, since I accepted that some time ago as a given.
Searching the net I found that, on a list for Jehovah witnesses!!!:
"The 6th of January became for Christians the feast of the power revelation (epiphany) of their God, thereby displacing the feast of Dionysus's epiphany. As Bultmann says, "No doubt the story [of the marriage feast at Cana] has been borrowed from pagan legends and transferred to Jesus". On his feast day, Dionysus made empty jars fill up with wine in his temple in Elis; and on the island of Andros, wine flowed instead of water from a spring or in his temple. Accordingly, the true miracle of the marriage feast at Cana would not be the transformation by Jesus of water into wine, but the transformation of Jesus into a sort of Christian wine god (Ranke-Heinmann 1992 81). In fact the 'water into wine' is also stated to be one of the first of the many bizarre miracles of Dionysus (Briffault 3 130)."

Still no primary evidence and no wedding. And I did not find anything else except an unsubstantiated tale about Dionysus changing the Agean sea into wine.

Best regards, Bernard

TySixtus

Bernard and Gak,

I never mentioned Dionysus at a wedding. Why are you? That was never part of my statement. Sorry if I missed something...

Bernard, what do you mean there is no 'Primary Evidence'? You mean there are no eye witness accounts of Dionysus turning water into wine? Of course there arent... Please explain.

Amaleq13

Jesus turns water into wine at a wedding.


I'm pretty sure he means the title of an ancient collection of Dionysus myths. What is the presumably primary evidence upon which Bultmann and Briffault base their statements?

Bernard Muller

Ty:
Maybe you did not but I did. On the website you gave us, here is:
"The Eleusinian mysteries, performed with respect to Dionysus, were performed as Autumn mysteries. The novices danced over the sacred road with music, being beaten and abused. Dionysus was born on December 25 - the winter solstice and common birthday of the dying-and-resurrecting savior-god who is associated with the birth of light.
He was resurrected on March 25 after dying three days earlier. In the night of 5th. January, when Dionysus changed water into wine, he married Ariadne."

By primary evidence, I mean ancient authors reporting the stories (before the cult died out). So many stories about Dionysus changing water in wine: where do they come from? So far, I cannot get further that modern writers/scholars. I doubt those, at least the serious scholars, would have them through "oral" traditions!

Best regards, Bernard

TySixtus

:banghead:

I know he does that. Thats not what I meant; why did they bring it up, was my question, as I was not drawing any conclusions to water/ wine/ marriage relationships, merely water/wine. But, that was cleared up afterwards. As Bernard stated, he brought it up, and I thought he was asking why I thought that.

Good questions, and since I found that site I'm doing some research on that very point. I can't believe, thought, that they (and a few others) just made that up and they all happened to make up the same thing, and say it the same way. Ergo, I believe there is a source, I just have to find it.


Why not? W.H.D Rouse, well known for his translations of the Illiad and the Odeyssey, as well as numerous publications concerning Greek and Roman Mythology, went to the source, and the was a guest in Greece for many years. Many of the stories he told and wrote were taken from local, oral tradition. Does that make them invalid? At one point, they were all oral. Perhaps the oral story is 'more right', as opposed to the newer, written form?

Positvely stimulating discussion! You guys are awesome! :notworthy

Ty

GakuseiDon

I'm afraid I couldn't get your link didn't work. I agree, what is important is what they believed 2000 years ago. AFAIK, their main teachings were formalised about 2300 years, and there was no virgin birth then. His parents were married long before he was born.

He says, "Dionysus was born on December 25 - the winter solstice and common birthday of the dying-and-resurrecting savior-god who is associated with the birth of light.

He was resurrected on March 25 after dying three days earlier. In the night of 5th. January, when Dionysus changed water into wine, he married Ariadne"

AFAIK, there is no date for Dionysus birth or death. He gives no sources, so it can't be checked, and I've never seen it elsewhere, though he is right that other gods were born on Dec 25. As Dionysus never changed water into wine, I don't know how credible his sources are. But since he doesn't list them, we don't know.

Yes, but "vestal virgin" is an occupation, not a condition. According to http://www.forumromanum.org/mythology/romulus.html, his mother was raped by Mars, or someone pretending to be Mars. Nothing there about a virgin birth, nor even a miracle birth.

I think you are confusing "virgin birth" with "miracle birth". Besides, you didn't say "virgin birth", you said "Attis: Born of the virgin Nama". There is nothing there to say she was a virgin. The crux of Christianity's claim was that Mary WAS a virgin, hence "Virgin Mary". I think those sites say "Virgin Nana" because "Miracle Birth Nana" wouldn't sound as similar!

But where is the virgin birth? All I can find is here:

Indra is described as being very powerful, with a reddish complexion, and with either two or four very long arms. His parents were the sky god Dyaus Pita and the earth goddess Prthivi; he was born fully grown and fully armed from his mother's side.

Again, a miracle birth. Was Prthivi a virgin? There is nothing there to say.

The author of the truthbeknown website is the infamous Archarya S. She is generally regarded as extremely unreliable (and I'm being kind). She also believes in Atlantis and hints darkly at a government conspiracy to manipulate belief in the existence of aliens http://www.truthbeknown.com/aliens.htm. Not that it means she is automatically wrong about the myths, but take my word for it - be careful when using her as evidence. (If anyone on this website disagrees with my assessment, please let us know). She is anthropology's version of Erich von Daniken.

No problem. But as I said above, using "Virgin Nana", "Virgin Devaki", etc, is not just claiming a "virgin birth", but something more. The only pre-Christian god I can think of that was born of a virgin is Perseus, and even that is not clear-cut.

GakuseiDon

A lot of these claims were made in the 19th C CE, in the age when textual criticism and rationalism came into vogue. Some of the claims were made by liberal Christians, who were trying to find a commonality to all religions. Many more were out-and-out frauds (like St Issa, the story of Jesus between the ages of 12 and 30, living in Tibet and studying Buddhism).

Finally, by the late 19th C CE, the Christian myth began to evolve in its current form. It's been rolling on steadily since. It's also been steadily debunked since, but as far as I know, most of the debunkers have been from the Christian side, e.g. Tektonics http://tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04.html. But these are invariably accused of bias.

Does anyone know any skeptical websites that have actually examined the original sources about virgin born and crucified man-gods, and either proved or disproved the claims? (I'm not talking about the Christ Myth as such, just individual claims).

Roland

In her famous book entitled "Mythology," Edith Hamilton refers to Dionysus/Bacchus in the following way:

"This strange god...was also the sufferer...he was the vine...like Persephone, Dionysus died with the coming cold. Unlike her, his death was terrible; he was torn to pieces, in some stories by the Titans, in others by Hera's orders. He was always brought back to life; he died and rose again. It was his joyful resurrection they celebrated in his theatre...He was more than the suffering god. He was the tragic god. There was none other. He had still another side. He was the assurance that death does not end all. His worshippers believed that his death and resurrection showed that the soul lives on forever after the body dies. This faith was part of the mysteries of Eleusis...In his resurrection, he was the embodiement of the life that is stronger than death." pp. 63-64

The reason I quote this is because Hamilton is highly respected as an expert on mythology and she does not seem to have any kind of anti-Christian ax to grind. She also tends to use BCE sources in her research.