Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yuri Kuchinsky · 01-28-2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Yuri,

You're absolutely right about Marcion not being pure.

I have rethought my position. We still have to explain the chopping up of the Sermon on the Mount in Luke and Marcion.

As I explain in the Evolution of Christs and Christianities, the Sermon of the Mount is part of a long speech originally attributed to John (the Nazarene/Prophet/Christ/Baptist) that Matthew has reproduced virtually intact.

Dear Jay,

I see no evidence that the Sermon of the Mount was very early, or that it was earlier than the similar material in Lk.

Current academic consensus has it that the sayings material in Lk is earlier, and I happen to agree with this view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

We can take it Marcion was working from this urMatthew document.

I don't think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Why does he change the order of the text? It is because he is not writing a gospel. He is trying to produce evidence that this gospel "urMatthew" contradicts the law and the prophets. He is being guided by what he reading in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially Isaiah. So the order of Isaiah determines to a certain extent the order of the passages he is reproducing from "urMatthew"

This is rather too speculative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

I think that it is likely that the urMatthew document was written shortly before Marcion's response. So we can put both documents circa 140's.

In general, I believe that the sayings material in the gospels was added rather late, so ca 140 sounds about right.

Of course I don't believe in Q; rather, the sayings material was being added piecemeal from a variety of sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

I believe there were at least two revisions to urMatthew after Marcion. The first one of them included putting in the birth narrative. I believe that Tertullian did the second revision circa 207 when he wrote the gospel of Luke based on Matthew (1) and Marcion.

Tertullian had no authority to write any gospel. In fact, he broke with the Orthodox just around 207, so who would have had any use for his gospel?

All the best,

Yuri.

schilling.klaus · 01-29-2008, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

As I explain in the Evolution of Christs and Christianities, the Sermon of the Mount is part of a long speech originally attributed to John (the Nazarene/Prophet/Crist/Baptist) that Matthew has reproduced virtually intact.

I see no evidence that the Sermon of the Mount was very early, or that it was earlier than the similar material in Lk.

the sermon on the mount depends heavily on the work of Epictetus,
and also on Plutarch. The works of Epictetus got published by Arrianus
not before Hadrian's rule.

Klaus Schilling

arnoldo · 01-31-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Ben,

This should probably be a new thread, as we are moving to a move specific topic then previously discussed. I'll let the moderators decide.

The main proposition of Tertullian that Marcion was splitting the gospel from the laws (of Moses) is certainly correct. However, his subproposition (which he devotes extraordinarily little energy to proving) that he was consciously interpolating Luke is extremely dubious.

Marcion saw contradictions (antitheses, as he calls them) between the gospel and the laws. All he needed to do was to bring them together to show them. He had no intention and no need to change the gospel that he found in circulation.

Yes, because of the heresy of Marcion we can have a definite date for the gospels which were already in circulation.

schilling.klaus · 02-01-2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes, because of the heresy of Marcion we can have a definite date for the gospels which were already in circulation.

all fraudulent humbug. it's the churchfathers who fraudulently perverted Marcion's works.

Klaus Schilling

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