Dave

i just found out that my school believs in calvinism's views of predestination. it is complete bull shit as all christianity is, but can some of you guys post some good hard facts against it that make it look completely stupid?

Rational BAC

There was fairly recently a very long thread started by a Calvinist---Theoscholar. I think you could find just about any argument possible against Calvinism and predestination by innumerable posters in that thread.

Try a search. I think you will find everthing you need on that thread.

Rifleman

I haven't seen the other thread, but here's a quick point that may or may not be there.

Calvinism is plainly unbiblical for a variety of reasons, but one of the most obvious is when Jesus is expressing sadness over the ancient Hebrews' rejection of Him:

One of the tenets of Calvinism is the doctrine of "irresistible grace," which claims that when Christ calls a person to Himself, that person will automatically follow Him. Obviously that conflicts with Jesus' words in the above quote.

Postcard73

Actually, don't bother with the search function because it isn't working right now. You can find the thread RBAC mentioned here. I hope it'll provide you with some of the information you're looking for...

Titanpoint

Never mind Calvinism - its beaten by Hobbesism

Heurismus

Hi Titanpoint,

Beaten by Hobbes? I hope that is a challenge for a formal debate, especially on whether or not Hobbes could actually be called a 'humanist' in a 17th century context.
Was he an absolutist I wonder, or was he calling for reason.
Hobbes and Calvin may be a cartoon sysegy, but I have never read anything that quite asserts that Hobbes system was worse than Calvins unless it came from a Calvinist.
Put up your Dukes! The Behemoth is about to roll over, will you be in its way?

Damn we are forgetting Dave!

Titanpoint

All I know is that Hobbesism mauls Calvinism every day, especially after classes have finished.

Heurismus

Sorry Titanpoint,

I understand the bit after class too! As a teacher, Hobbes has an unusual and quite arrogant approach to many. The subtlety of Hobbes is, 'did he really mean what he said'. Unfortunately Hobbes is not taught well for many understandable reasons.
I hope in my short alloted time, amongst many others I'm sure, to re elevate Hobbes to more than 'Restoration' debates and suggest that he is at the beginnings of modern humanism, as much as Niccolo Machiavelli. (The poor teaching that this man gets is equally atrocious.)

Jamie_L

A couple of comments:

While Calvinism may not be "biblical" based on some verses of scripture, I believe it is "biblical" by others. Not being a bible scholar, I can't quote chapter and verse. But in previous threads I've seen people post bible quotes that both support and contradict Calvinism. That, of course, is not an all unusual when dealing with the bible.

Second, though predestination is distasteful to many, it actually seems much more consistent with many aspects attributed to God. A lot of the conflicts between free will, omniscience, faith and reason, and other stuff just goes away if you assume God just set things up as some kind of morality play with some people saved and others not. Of course, that might call into question God's omnibenevolence, but the usual defenses (UPD, etc.) can be mounted for that.

In my experience, Calvinism seems a bit more internally consistent than other versions of Christianity. Of course, the unpleasant conclusions drawn from Calvinism don't make one feel to good about that consistency.

Jamie

Llyricist

I think it's enough to note that nearly all of the "biblical" support for Calvinism is found in the letters of Paul. Without his fevered imaginings, Calvinism would not exist (Should be called Paulism, but then, so should Christianity as we know it).