rlogan

hi Ben.

What would it actually take to convince you of whatever you mean by "mythicism".

Your version of Jesus already bears no resemblence to the gospel Jesus - and I mean that kindly. But what makes him the gospel Jesus? The resurrection, first and foremost. The miracles. The virgin birth and all the rest of the hokey superman stuff.

So it very nearly comes down to proving to you that there were no itinerant preachers then. But there were plenty of them.

Clivedurdle

I see a very clear curve fitting early data points very well and missing completely later data points because the later ones were put on the graph after the curve was drawn, with other ones added in pretending to be early!

walt6

From the quoted text, I would come to the conclusion that Paul had heard some stories about a guy named Jesus, and about how he was killed. It seems to me this may be evidence that a man named Jesus really existed.

Chili

He did exist but the true value of his existence is not found in history but in the metaphor that describes his life. Paul shared the same experience with Jesus which in reality is a detailed example of metamorphosis in humans that Paul ran away with and built a new religion on.

jjramsey

You miss the point of the metaphor I'm using, which is that we have to take into account all the data that is there. That doesn't mean that the content of the New Testament must be taken at face value. However, for mythicism to be viable, it has to explain why the content of the New Testament is what it is, warts and all. It should, for example, explain why the Gospel of Matthew has Jesus denounce two small towns within walking distance of a small village that the author of the Gospel of Matthew portrays as Jesus' home away from home. (This is in Matthew 11:20-24.)

Richard Feynmann put it better than I could when he talked about Cargo Cult Science:

TedM

There are many possible "in-between" HJ's. A few of attributes that would be significant would be

1. had a semi-large following during his lifetime
2. his teachings were known to some extent
3. his alleged miracles were known to some extent
4. people closely associated with him really existed
5. was crucified
6. crucified near or during Passover in Jerusalem
7. believed resurrected by people who were his earthly followers

evidence for each of the above take us further away from "just some preacher" and closer to the "gospel Jesus"

ted

Chris Weimer

This I'd seriously doubt. The crowds who followed Jesus were most likely fiction.

What does this mean exactly?

I'm still undecided if miracles were pregospel or postgospel. What does Paul say about miracles? Q?

I'd keep this list extremely brief. And tenuous at best.

This I'd opt for.

Quite possible. This may have been a key in early Christian's thinking - divine symbolism.

Ressurrected in flesh or spirit? I'd opt for the latter.

jjramsey

Mark 6:1-6 would suggest it was pregospel, especially if one takes with a grain of salt the second part of verse 6:5, "except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them." This story would then imply a failure to do miracles, which would imply that Jesus attempted to do them.

Chris Weimer

Quite possible, and I've heard this used before. But it's still possible that it's a stylistic feature of Mark. (Faith -> miracles; no faith -> no miracles). It fits in well with the whole No signs for you deal.

rlogan

How about "wore sandals and had hair on top of his head?" At least those are more specific than "semi-large" and "to some extent" & etc.

The search for the "in-between" Jesus is the apologetics for why there is no evidence of an HJ. On the face of it, we have a stupid proposition to begin with. There is no body because he rose from the dead. Har! Talk about lame.

You might have an excuse for not knowing where the body is after two thousand years. But not contemporaneously. What is the contemporaneous excuse? There isn't one. Other than the uber-stupid "rose from the dead" claim.

I'd love to see any evidence whatsoever of something specific as opposed to the hand-waving "just so" stories of why he managed to escape detection.