Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 04-08-2005, 10:43 AM

IAsimisI - what makes you think the Judeo-Christian God created the Universe?

The Bible?

Who wrote the Bible?

People did.

So how did they know?

It is believed they were inspired by God.

Why do we think they were inspired by God?

Because they either claim to have been (though I'm not sure this is the case) or because other people said they were.

In either case, all we've got to go on is the opinion or claim of another human being.

Why should such opinions or claims be believed?

And why should those made on behalf of other Religious leaders, such as Mohammed and John Smith, not be believed?

Philosoft · 04-08-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

How is it special pleading? The universe and God are not the same thing, the universe by it's own nature needs a beginning which needs a cause for it to come into existence.

That is incorrect. A "beginning" does not necessarily entail a cause.

Hedshaker · 04-08-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

How is it special pleading? The universe and God are not the same thing,

says you, with no evidence, no proof, just your word and we should believe your fantasy, why exactly?

Quote:

the universe by it's own nature needs a beginning which needs a cause for it to come into existence.

So, shows us again why the universe needs a beginning and God does not :huh:

Quote:

"ancient myths and superstition" is a very subjective term, the mere fact that they are old or even that they are myth has not relevance whatsoever on the truthfulness of the claims.

Then perhaps you can show us the "truthfulness of the claims" outside your faith?

Orbit

Evoken · 04-08-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

IAsimisI suggests that because I think it odd that God chose to reveal himself to the Jews, I imply that a god wasn't revealed to them at all.
That's true. But I would say that because I'm an atheist. The real point of my observation, however, is to encourage a Christian to ponder the peculiarity of this megga super Entity called God creating the entire universe and setting in motion a process which produced thousands upon thousands of human tribes - and picking on just one them to be "his people." And doing it after thousands upon thousands of other tribes had - in their ignorance - invented completely bogus patheons of deities to worship. So when he told the Jews, "I'm the one true God," he'd let a situation arise in which he was immediately in competition with the gods worshipped by all their neighbours - and indeed, all the other peoples on Earth.
I mean, was that sensible?

Well Stephen, like I told you in my previous post to you, you are assuming what should or should not have happened. Who is to say that it is not the case? We are talking from our perspective about how we think it should have been and how we would have either done it or preferred it, but things need not always been what we want them to be, right?

Quote:

Now I know Christians don't question God's sense, any more than they question his morality, on the basis that "he works in mysterious ways" and is so superior to our puny minds that he is beyond our comprehension.
It is to be noted, however, that this doesn't prevent them from ascribing motives to him which make sense to their "puny" minds. They do it all they time, and we see it being done all the time here at Infidels. But throw them a question such as the one above, and they retreat into the "He's-too- mysterious-for-us-to-understand" defence. Hence this from IAsimisI: "If God has made himself known then it is not up to us to decide on what manner (if any) God has decided to reveal himself or what plan (if any) God has decided to stablish for the universe or mankind."

Frankly, I don't find it very impressive.

I take God as he has revealed himself to us thru his Church. In the end you either believe that God is in control over his creation and know what he is doing or you don't. We cannot fully comprehend God, we cannot reduce God to logical formulas or "rational" arguments, we must have faith in God, in the end that is what it boils down to. After you look at all the evidence, conclusions and everything you either believe that God is or you don't.

Quote:

IAsimisI then informs us that "God has his existence apart from the universe but is present in all created space."
How can he possibly know? And if this megga-super entity really is present in all of space - in all of the billions upon billions of galaxies in the Universe, and the black holes and other strange features of it - why? Is it to keep the whole thing working? If he were to disappear from just one tiny little bit of it, for a nano second, would all the natural laws in that tiny little bit of it cease to operate? If not, what's the point of his presence?

God maintains the entire creation by his divine will, he sustains everything. He is present in everything he has created, that is the entire universe and all it's parts.

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God's physical powers seem somewhat limited; Although being all-powerful, he can't actually do anything, except through the agency of human beings whom he can inspire to do all sorts of things, from making war to building great churches and feeding those who starve, and burning heretics to death.
That such a powerful deity should depend so completely on such an inferior being points atheists towards the conclusion that the Biblical God, in common with every other god, is a creation of the human imagination.

That is how God chooses to communicate, if you believe it is a myth (as I know you do) then that is your conclusion.

Hedshaker · 04-08-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

nothing causes itself because that means that such a thing would have to exists prior to itself

Please explain how God causes itself and does not exist prior to itself?

And remember, an entity that exists without a cause contradicts your premise.

Orbit

Evoken · 04-08-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitV2

I wouldn't hold your breath

Great post but my guess is it will fall on deaf ears :huh:

Orbit

It does not falls on deaf ears (unless not falling on deaf ears means agreeing with it), the problem is that it just shows that because it is implausible/impossible that God would act that way then it is not true, it is something based on what we would do or on what we would preffer, and what has happened is dismissed on that basis.

Evoken · 04-08-2005, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBadBad

Scenario1:

Assume there is no God. Assume the Christian position that there would be no time, no space, no universe. If you take God away, those things wouldn't exist. There would be no evidence and nothing to evaluate it.

Scenario2:

Assume there is a God. "Before" time began, there's no time, no space, and no universe. There is only God.

The more interesting question is to compare and contrast scenario 1 and 2. What is the difference between God and the empty set?

You are forgeting that God created everything and you are making some sort of false ecenario which takes existence(ourselves included) out of the equation. In one scenario there is nothing in the other there is God.

Evoken · 04-08-2005, 01:37 PM

This is more red herring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

IAsimisI - what makes you think the Judeo-Christian God created the Universe?

The Bible?

Who wrote the Bible?

People did.

So how did they know?

It is believed they were inspired by God.

Why do we think they were inspired by God?

Because they either claim to have been (though I'm not sure this is the case) or because other people said they were.

In either case, all we've got to go on is the opinion or claim of another human being.

Why should such opinions or claims be believed?

And why should those made on behalf of other Religious leaders, such as Mohammed and John Smith, not be believed?

Hedshaker · 04-08-2005, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

It does not falls on deaf ears (unless not falling on deaf ears means agreeing with it), the problem is that it just shows that because it is implausible/impossible that God would act that way then it is not true, it is something based on what we would do or on what we would preffer, and what has happened is dismissed on that basis.

Dude, first you dramatically denounce christianity on these boards, then you come back as a christian goth (or some such nonsense), then you're an authority on the Catholic church.

Where you christened Catholic as I was? Did you grow up in a Catholic environment as I did?

Please forgive me if I cannot take you seriousely

:down: :down: :down: :down:

Orbit

Evoken · 04-08-2005, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitV2

Please explain how God causes itself and does not exist prior to itself?

And remember, an entity that exists without a cause contradicts your premise.

Orbit

God did not cause himself and no it does not contradicts my premise because God by his nature (in contrast to the universe as I have explained) is not an entity that needs a cause. God is not driven my cause/effect but lives in an eternal now, the universe in the other hand is driven by cause/effect and is divided in time, ergo it needs to have a start.

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04-08-2005, 10:43 AM	#101
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	IAsimisI - what makes you think the Judeo-Christian God created the Universe? The Bible? Who wrote the Bible? People did. So how did they know? It is believed they were inspired by God. Why do we think they were inspired by God? Because they either claim to have been (though I'm not sure this is the case) or because other people said they were. In either case, all we've got to go on is the opinion or claim of another human being. Why should such opinions or claims be believed? And why should those made on behalf of other Religious leaders, such as Mohammed and John Smith, not be believed?

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