Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ryzo · 10-09-2005, 11:11 AM

In the old testament god tells the Jews to put lamb's blood on their doors so their first-born son won't be killed. Then later god tests Job to see if Job will remain faithful. Both of these stories contradict omniscience, for why would an omniscient god need to test Job since it should already know the anwser?

pharoah · 10-09-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scyld

In the old testament god tells the Jews to put lamb's blood on their doors so their first-born son won't be killed. Then later god tests Job to see if Job will remain faithful. Both of these stories contradict omniscience, for why would an omniscient god need to test Job since it should already know the anwser?

Well if you think about it, they have no choice but to believe it. If God can't see into the future, then any promise that he made is at best speculative and at worst worthless. In your blood example, they'll probably argue that even though God is omniscient, the angel that did the killing wasn't. The Job story is more problematic, although I don't think that omniscience is the real issue here.

NOGO · 10-09-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scyld

In the old testament god tells the Jews to put lamb's blood on their doors so their first-born son won't be killed. Then later god tests Job to see if Job will remain faithful. Both of these stories contradict omniscience, for why would an omniscient god need to test Job since it should already know the anwser?

Your first example is not a good one.

Put the blood and your child will live. Do not put it and your child will die.
What does that have to do with omniscience?
Sounds to me as a case of cause and effect.

pharoah · 10-10-2005, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOGO

Your first example is not a good one.

Put the blood and your child will live. Do not put it and your child will die.
What does that have to do with omniscience?
Sounds to me as a case of cause and effect.

I think that he was trying to say why would God need a physical sign to differentiate between the Israelite and Egyptian housheolds? It's a good question but the apologists have easy ways around it.

Clivedurdle · 10-10-2005, 02:16 AM

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's why.

Oxymoron · 10-10-2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scyld

In the old testament god tells the Jews to put lamb's blood on their doors so their first-born son won't be killed. Then later god tests Job to see if Job will remain faithful. Both of these stories contradict omniscience, for why would an omniscient god need to test Job since it should already know the anwser?

An omniscient god would already have known that the Egyptians were going to be bastards to the Jews when he created the heavens and the earth, allegedly. Either he knew the future - in which case he allowed suffering and slavery and the slaughter of innocent Egyptian children, or he did not - in which case he is not omniscient.

10-10-2005, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

An omniscient god would already have known that the Egyptians were going to be bastards to the Jews when he created the heavens and the earth, allegedly. Either he knew the future - in which case he allowed suffering and slavery and the slaughter of innocent Egyptian children, or he did not - in which case he is not omniscient.

If the future didn't happen, God could not know it. Therefore, unless the universe is completely deterministic (and it isn't) the only way God could know what will happen is if it is going to happen. Thus he can hardly be blamed for not stopping something he has foreseen because he can't foresee unless it is the real future.

Best wishes

Bede

Lunawalk · 10-10-2005, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scyld

In the old testament god tells the Jews to put lamb's blood on their doors so their first-born son won't be killed. Then later god tests Job to see if Job will remain faithful. Both of these stories contradict omniscience, for why would an omniscient god need to test Job since it should already know the anwser?

In the flood story god is greved to heart by man's evil. It like he reacting to an situation rather that knowing it from eternity. The ancient Hebrews did not believe in an omniscient god. That was an later concept.

pharoah · 10-10-2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

If the future didn't happen, God could not know it. Therefore, unless the universe is completely deterministic (and it isn't) the only way God could know what will happen is if it is going to happen. Thus he can hardly be blamed for not stopping something he has foreseen because he can't foresee unless it is the real future.

Best wishes

Bede

One of the things that God foresees as he looks into the future is that he's going to decide not to do anything to stop many disasters that he has the power to stop.

Nice try though! :notworthy

Anat · 10-10-2005, 11:09 AM

If one takes the Bible literally then of course God knew the Egyptians will enslave the Israelites - he foretold that to Abraham, including the length of the period of slavery. The question of the Egyptians' free will remains unsolved, though. One could say that each Egyptian had the choice of whether and to what degree to participate in the oppression of the Israelites, but then if all of them chose not to do it what would have become of the prediction? And if the enslavement was a necessary step in the development of the Israelites then what is the justification for punishing the Egyptians? (The apologetic claim is that they were punished for enjoying it.)

As for the marking of the homes with the blood - one could say God knew which were the homes of the Israelites but he wanted to save only those who proved that they were worthy by taking an active and visible step to identify themselves as Israelites - which of course only serves to move the conflict of omniscense and free will a step.

10-09-2005, 11:11 AM	#1
Ryzo Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: U.S., N.C Posts: 465	Why do christians insist their god is omniscient? In the old testament god tells the Jews to put lamb's blood on their doors so their first-born son won't be killed. Then later god tests Job to see if Job will remain faithful. Both of these stories contradict omniscience, for why would an omniscient god need to test Job since it should already know the anwser?

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10-10-2005, 02:16 AM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That's why.

10-10-2005, 11:09 AM	#10
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	If one takes the Bible literally then of course God knew the Egyptians will enslave the Israelites - he foretold that to Abraham, including the length of the period of slavery. The question of the Egyptians' free will remains unsolved, though. One could say that each Egyptian had the choice of whether and to what degree to participate in the oppression of the Israelites, but then if all of them chose not to do it what would have become of the prediction? And if the enslavement was a necessary step in the development of the Israelites then what is the justification for punishing the Egyptians? (The apologetic claim is that they were punished for enjoying it.) As for the marking of the homes with the blood - one could say God knew which were the homes of the Israelites but he wanted to save only those who proved that they were worthy by taking an active and visible step to identify themselves as Israelites - which of course only serves to move the conflict of omniscense and free will a step.

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