Answerer

I guess I could safely guess that God could be lying all along, since I know nothing about God's magnificent plan and his characters and the fact that no one else in this world had this knowledge as well.

Well, if God lies, then the bible will surely hold no evidence to prove otherwise, especially since it is just a tool to accomplish God's plan.

Therefore, no one in this world can prove my guess to be absolutely wrong one unless he think he is God, Himself.

Steven Carr

He's fattenening us up for his one-eyed, one-toothed, green space alien friends, that the Simpsons writers are on the track of and trying to tell us about.

Mike(ATL)

I thought we were talking about Bible contradictions here, isn't the Bible a good source? There are no other ways to talk about the nature of God then from what we know in the Bible. I can't have any conversation with you about what God reveals about himself in the Bible without using the Bible.

Authors in the Bible and God himself quoted in the Bible say God is just. Those very same authors then give accounts of things that could be interpretted in different ways. Isn't it fair to say that these same authors find God to be just from what they observed? Yet some of us here see those same things and say God is not just. Well it's a judgement call, you can form your own opinion. I choose to side with the consistent message of the Bible.

-DM-

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1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, JE 20:7, EZ 14:9 God deceives some of the prophets.

JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word.

2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked (to be able to condemn them).

Thus:
1) If God deceives anyone at all, and if the Bible is "the word of God," then the Bible cannot be trusted.
2) If the Bible is NOT "the word of God," then it cannot be trusted.
3) Therefore, the Bible cannot be trusted whether it is or is not "the word of God."

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Note, however, that the Bible also says:

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true.

... which carries no weight, however, given that the Bible cannot be trusted based on the aforementioned verses.

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All of this reminds me of one of my favorite biblical flaws:

TS 1:12 The testimony of a Cretan to the effect that Cretans
are always liars is accepted by the author of Titus as being
true.

Hmmnn. If Cretans are "always" liars, and if this is said by a Cretan, "one of their own prophets," where does that leave us in terms of the truth of the statement? If he were telling the truth, then Cretans are not "always liars." If he is telling a lie, then some Cretans must sometimes tell the truth.

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Ah yes, the Bible is truly an incredibly marvelous book.

-Don-

-DM-

It seems to me that your choice goes much farther than that: you choose to believe that the message is always consistent when it is not, just as some Muslims choose to believe that the message of the Qur'an is always consistent when it is not.

Myself, I once believed the Bible to be the word of God, taking the word of Bible-study teachers, my minister, and others I trusted for it. I always said that I would one day look into it in more depth. When I began to notice the kinds of biblical problems that I now notice, I did look into it in more depth. In fact, I read literally hundreds of books on both sides of the fence. The result: I couldn't possibly choose to believe that the Bible presents a consistent message unless I were to completely abandon my intellect.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, cognitive dissonance is just not my cup of tea.

-Don-

Doctor X

Mike(ALT):

Yes.

No. This only holds if you believe the Bible reveals the nature of a deity. If you do, then you are stuck with accepting an unjust, if not evil, deity based on the passages from the Bible.

K is correct in his assessment--you declare him just because of the Bible, but when the Bible demonstrates he is not then you declare it must be anyways because he has to be just. 'Tis a rather viscious circle.

It is hard to separate theology from a discussion on Biblical Criticism & History, of course; however, I suggest you consider attempting it. What you personally believe does not have to depend on a text. The texts exist independent of what you want them to say.

--J.D.

K

Mike(ATL):

[QUOTE[I thought we were talking about Bible contradictions here, isn't the Bible a good source? There are no other ways to talk about the nature of God then from what we know in the Bible. I can't have any conversation with you about what God reveals about himself in the Bible without using the Bible.[/QUOTE]

The Bible is exactly where to look. However, the Bible says God is just. You were shown several examples where God acts unjustly. You can't claim those aren't contradictions because God must have had some extra-Biblical reason for doing it. And it's really ridiculous to assert that you know there must be an extra-Biblical reason for the behavior because the Bible claims that God is just.

Here's a little demonstration.

I always treat all people with courtesy and respect. I taunt and ridicule people with physical deformities and mental handicaps.

It would be absurd to say that there is no contradiction in the previous two sentences simply because I claimed that I treated people with respect and therefore must have a respectful reason for taunting those that I taunt. There is clearly a contradiction. It's just like the contradiction when the Bible calls just and then proceeds to describe His behavior - behavior which we could only label 'unjust'.

You can't 'choose' to make a contradiction disappear simply by assuming apriori that there is no contradiction.

Authors of the Bible called God 'just' in some parts. In other parts, they described some of His unjust actions. That's a contradiction. It's dishonest to say that it isn't a contradiction because the authors MUST have known what they were talking about when they called Him just. A contradiction is a contradiction.

Doctor X

. . . and in some passages they have him declare himself injust.

Again, the writers did not have the problem "we" seem to have today with a very anthropomorphic entity--with the vices of man, including a terrible temper. Even Junior speaks of a Big Daddy who has such a temper--watch out, you let your light go out, you end up in the cold . . . with teeth gnashing--that you just have to "deal with."

--J.D.

Tod

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doctor X
No disrespect to the posters who did attempt the impossible, but we have also had some interesting explanations of the bears that mauled 40+ children for pissing off Elisha!


When the original Godless Zone message board was operating (not to be confused with the current "Godless Zone," assuming you may have heard of either, please), I recall one Christian whose explanation for this problem included "mad poisoned bears." In fairness to the poster, this was his last ditch effort after more traditional explanations (such as the ones given in the instance you refer to) had been exhausted. Anyway...

I believe in his scenario, the bear attacks were a coincidence, and their particularly vicious attack on so many people was fueled by the bears having drank poisoned water spoken of in verse 19. This poisoned water caused the bears to enter a rabid, "mad" state where they were roaming around horrifically attacking everybody they encountered. Somehow, these super bears managed to attack 40+ kids simultaneously, because apparently the kids were all frozen with fear or some crap. YHWH nor Elisha had anything to with it, and Elisha's "curse" was a cursing in the modern sense of "cussing," the equivalent of saying "damn brats" basically.

It was truly one of the more interesting and entertaining apologetics attempts I'd ever seen.

The "mad poisoned bears" incident became the biggest embarrassment for the guy after that. He was ribbed about it endlessly Encouragingly, however, when I encountered this guy a couple of years later, he claimed he was now an atheist, and his stay at the Godless Zone had been the primary cause of his lose of faith. There is hope.

Of course I still had to poke fun of him and remind him of the "mad poisoned bears" scenario.

Mike(ATL)

I appreciate the attempt but it's like I never wrote anything at all explaining why those things were not necessarily unjust. My only argument was not, "well the Bible says God is just." The bears, we don't know the circumstances, we don't know if the only thing those kids did was call Elisha a baldy so we can't assume that it is an example of God being unjust. To assume that the actions of a God who knows how everything plays out in the world are unjust is extremely difficult if not impossible. Cases where infants are killed in the crossfire so to speak are tragic (as any death is) but not necessarily unjust because God knows how things would play out if He didn't intervene. We are in no position to deem the actions of all-knowing, almighty God unjust. Does this sound familiar? It should, I've said this already but apparently no one is listening or no one cares. I'm getting the feeling you read part of what I say and stereotype me with an easier argument to ignore.

And congrats DM, even though this doesn't have much (if anything) to do with the original two verses it irks me enough that I can't put it off for another day. I hope this doesn't become the multiple-issues-at-once kind of thread that I can't keep up with but alas I sometimes cannot resist.

Let me just quickly explain why all the examples given do not show that God is lying to people

1 Kings 22:21-23
"Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.' Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."
Explanation: Those prophets are not prophets speaking on behalf of God, they are false prophets and their allegiance is to the king. And God did not lie to them but sent an angel who apparently came up with the plan on his own. It looks like the angel was influencing the false prophets to send the king into battle to die for going against God.

2 Chronicles 18:22
Explanation: is the same event described in 1 Kings 22:23

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, 'You will have peace'; whereas a sword touches the throat."
Explanation: God explains that this account was from false prophets here:
Jeremiah 14:13-14
But, "Ah, Lord GOD!" I said, "Look, the prophets are telling them, 'You will not see the sword nor will you have famine, but I will give you lasting peace in this place.'" Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.

Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived;
You have overcome me and prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all day long;
Everyone mocks me.
Explanation: Here Jeremiah is very weary of his cross to bear. His message of God punishing Israel is not well received and he is enduring heavy persecution. When he said the Lord is deceiving him he is complaining that God is using him too much. Just read the rest of the chapter, it's quite obvious. Here's one excerpt
Jeremiah 20:11
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion;
Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail.
They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed,
With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

Ezekiel 14:9
"But if the prophet is prevailed upon to speak a word, it is I, the LORD, who have prevailed upon that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel."
Explanation: Why would you chose this verse to show that God is lying to his own prophets? Do you mean that God is stretching out his hand against them. Either way, he is not against his prophet but against idolaters, you can see what he's talking about by reading what comes just before this verse.
Ezekiel 14:7
"For anyone of the house of Israel or of the immigrants who stay in Israel who separates himself from Me, sets up his idols in his heart, puts right before his face the stumbling block of his iniquity, and then comes to the prophet to inquire of Me for himself, I the LORD will be brought to answer him in My own person."

Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, 'We are wise,
And the law of the LORD is with us'?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
Has made it into a lie.
Explanation: This is talking about how God's people are not obeying God. They are making the law they write a lie because they are not heeding the law. Again, just look at the surrounding text.
Jeremiah 8:9
"The wise men are put to shame,
They are dismayed and caught;
Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD,
And what kind of wisdom do they have?

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Explanation: Hmm, "for this reason," maybe we should investigate this reason. These are people who delight in wickedness and have already rejected the truth. God is merely sending a "deluding influence" so they will believe the false teachings of the anti-christ described earlier in the chapter. He is not tricking them into sinning so He can judge them.
2 Thessalonians 2:10
and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Now tell me DM why I should ever take another word you say seriously. Just by looking at the context of those verses I was easily able to see that they are not saying God lies to people. Next time you give me evidence like this I will just assume it is false because you have given me false evidence in the past. Give me a break, please don't waste my time again. I would like to be open to what you have to say but forgive me if I'm not after this display.