Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-26-2009, 05:12 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

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Originally Posted by aa5874

So, the Jesus story makes no sense whatsoever.

To a flatlander a "story" of a spherical orb would make no sense, yet it exists. .

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Henceforth let the tongues of those who utter vanity and harass the Christians be silent; and hereafter let them speak the truth. For it is of serious consequence to them that they should worship the true God rather than worship a senseless sound. And verily whatever is spoken in the mouth of the Christians is of God; and their doctrine is the gateway of light. Wherefore let all who are without the knowledge of God draw near thereto; and they will receive incorruptible words, which are from all time and from eternity. So shall they appear before the awful judgment which through Jesus the Messiah is destined to come upon the whole human race.

The Apology of Aristides the Philosopher is finished.

I hope you realise that Aristides was a flatlander.

Aristedes "Apology"

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6. So also they erred who believed that the sun is a god.

For we see that it is moved by the compulsion of another, and revolves and makes its journey, and proceeds from sign to sign, rising and setting every day, so as to give warmth for the growth of plants and trees, and to bring forth into the air where with it (sunlight) is mingled every growing thing which is upon the earth.

And flatlanders or the ancients, it would appear, worshiped the wind, fire, earth and water as Gods.

It would also appear that Gods were a dime a dozen in antiquity. The believeability of the God seemed more essential than veracity and historicity.

Marcion claimed Jesus was just a Ghost-like Phantom and many people believed as if he alone knew the truth.

Some FLATLANDERS may have believed Jesus was all HOLY GHOST with human flesh while others believe that Jesus only looked like HE HAD FLESH but was some kind of God.

arnoldo · 12-26-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Marcion claimed Jesus was just a Ghost-like Phantom and many people believed as if he alone knew the truth.

Some FLATLANDERS may have believed Jesus was all HOLY GHOST with human flesh while others believe that Jesus only looked like HE HAD FLESH but was some kind of God.

Celsus' ridicule of christianity in the second century is far more interesting. .

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He writes:

"Like all quacks they gather a crowd of slaves, children, women and idlers. I speak bitterly about this because I feel bitterly. When we are invited to the Mysteries the masters use another tone. They say, Come to us you who are of clean hands and pure speech, you who are unstained by crime, who have a good conscience towards God, who have done justly and lived uprightly. The Christians say, Come to us you who are sinners, you who are fools or children, you who are miserable, and you shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: the rogue, the thief, the burglar, the poisoner, the despoiler of temples and tombs, these are their proselytes.

"Jesus, they say, was sent to save sinners; was he not sent to help those who have kept themselves free from sin? They pretend that God will save the unjust man if he repents and humbles himself. The just man who has held steady from the cradle in the ways of virtue He will not look upon. He pours scorn upon the exorcists; who were clearly in league with the demons themselves – and upon the excesses of the itinerant and undisciplined prophets who roam through cities and camps and commit to everlasting fire cities and lands and their inhabitants.

"Above all Christians are disloyal, and every church is an illicit collegium, an insinuation deadly at any time, but especially so under Marcus Aurelius. Why cannot Christians attach themselves to the great philosophic and political authorities of the world? A properly understood worship of gods and demons is quite compatible with a purified monotheism, and they might as well give up the mad idea of winning the authorities over to their faith, or of hoping to attain anything like universal agreement on divine things."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsus

. . . and historically significant.

aa5874 · 12-26-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Marcion claimed Jesus was just a Ghost-like Phantom and many people believed as if he alone knew the truth.

Some FLATLANDERS may have believed Jesus was all HOLY GHOST with human flesh while others believe that Jesus only looked like HE HAD FLESH but was some kind of God.

Celsus' ridicule of christianity in the second century is far more interesting. .

Quote:

He writes:

"Like all quacks they gather a crowd of slaves, children, women and idlers. I speak bitterly about this because I feel bitterly. When we are invited to the Mysteries the masters use another tone. They say, Come to us you who are of clean hands and pure speech, you who are unstained by crime, who have a good conscience towards God, who have done justly and lived uprightly. The Christians say, Come to us you who are sinners, you who are fools or children, you who are miserable, and you shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: the rogue, the thief, the burglar, the poisoner, the despoiler of temples and tombs, these are their proselytes.

"Jesus, they say, was sent to save sinners; was he not sent to help those who have kept themselves free from sin? They pretend that God will save the unjust man if he repents and humbles himself. The just man who has held steady from the cradle in the ways of virtue He will not look upon. He pours scorn upon the exorcists; who were clearly in league with the demons themselves – and upon the excesses of the itinerant and undisciplined prophets who roam through cities and camps and commit to everlasting fire cities and lands and their inhabitants.

"Above all Christians are disloyal, and every church is an illicit collegium, an insinuation deadly at any time, but especially so under Marcus Aurelius. Why cannot Christians attach themselves to the great philosophic and political authorities of the world? A properly understood worship of gods and demons is quite compatible with a purified monotheism, and they might as well give up the mad idea of winning the authorities over to their faith, or of hoping to attain anything like universal agreement on divine things."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsus

. . . and historically significant.

You would notice that Celsus mentioned Jesus.

What was Jesus of the NT? What are the fundamental characteristics of Jesus of the NT?

Never forget. It was the offspring of the Holy Ghost who walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended through the clouds. Everytime you see the word "Jesus" just think "Holy Ghost".

If you don't think "Holy Ghost" then think " Phantom". Marcion's Phantom called Jesus.

kcdad · 12-27-2009, 06:03 AM

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aa5874
Do you understand that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition?

Nope. I understand you keep repeating it over and over again...

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Do you read the NT? Please look at Matthew 9:2 -

SO? What is your point? Everyone can forgive sins, it is no big deal... what is easier to say your sins are forgiven or to say take up your bed and and walk... but to show you that the son of man (A HUMAN BEING) has the power to forgive sin... read the story.

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So why do you think that you can tell me about the Jesus story after 1900 years?

I don't think anyone can tell you anything.

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You read about a man. Man has a beginning and end.

Yep.

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Now read about Jesus, offspring of the Ghost of God. Matthew 1.18-21

And your point is what? YOU believe everything you read? George Washington had wooden teeth and chopped down a cherry tree... google washington zeus, horatio greenough

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And now read about his life without end.

Mark 9:31 -

And you are quoting this why? Jesus didn't rise on the third according to any story in the Bible.

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Well, tell that to Jesus the offspring of the Ghost of God.
Joh 3:16 -

Offspring? We are all sons of God... read the Pslams

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Joh 10:28 -

Jesus the Ghost of God didn't know what you are talking about.

Ghost of God... nice metaphor...

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I prefer to take information from a 2nd century writer of antiquity than a 21 century poster.

This second century writer?
Aristides (or Aristeides from the Greek: Ἀριστείδης, 530 BC - 468 BC) was an Athenian statesman, nicknamed "the Just".

You are as inaccurate as you repetitive and boring

kcdad · 12-27-2009, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If you don't think "Holy Ghost" then think " Phantom". Marcion's Phantom called Jesus.

I don't believe that you are stupid so you must be manipulative and evil... no one calls Jesus a ghost or a phantom. The Spirit is not a thing... spirit is spirit. You know... like the "Christmas Spirit". Not like Scrooges dreams of ghosts...

Get real and stop the nonsense.

Larkin31 · 12-27-2009, 06:27 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by Larkin31

I was not ignoring anything. You simply made a claim about Christians in the present tense (not "Christians of antiquity"). I followed your implications precisely.

But, that is exactly what you are doing. You are ignoring that I am dealing with what Jews and Jesus believers believed in antiquity. I have repeatedly referred to sources of antiquity. I have not mentioned information of the belief about Jesus from a christian source of today.

I am not dealing with what you believe when you have NO REASON. I can't deal with a belief in a one-off bizzarre event.

How come you see things that you don't even believe of which there are no credible records of being seen or was proven to be historical?

Show me what you see in black and white from sources of antiquity not what you imagine you see. People used to "see" Zeus now they can't. What happened to their "sight"?

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Originally Posted by Larkin31

I don't know why you are pushing this absolute claim. I don't even see its relevance to whether there was a man named Jesus who performed some "miracles," developed a movement, was killed, and lead to a religion.

So, why are you pushing your notion that, even though you doubt some history of Jesus, you still think he was historical?

You must see relevance in your position that is why your are posting here.

Now, I have no absolute claim.

My claims are based on extant information.

My claims are SOLIDLY SUPPORTED by SOURCES of ANTIQUITY.

If you can produce credible sources of antiquity that can show Jesus did indeed exist entirely as a man and was deified in Jerusalem then I MUST REVIEW my position that the HJ is a most SENSELESS position.

That is all I have been waiting for since the last 50 or so days. I am patiently waiting for HJers to produce credible sources of antiquity.

You have only made weak assertions and without any sources of antiquity to support you.

HJers are bankrupt for sources of antiquity but are highly liquid with imagination.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition since there are no sources of antiquity that can show that there was a character called Jesus who was actually human and was deified in Jerusalem by Jews who lied about every aspect of his life on earth, even claiming he was God and could forgive the sins of mankind and that his death and resurrection meant that the Laws of Moses could be abandoned.

You are asking for evidence of a lying Jesus and a lying group of followers. I think that that is rather some sort of poisoned strawman argument. The written evidence for these people is known to you and to everyone else. Are you seeking some additional find or discovery of some kind? It has its obvious weaknesses as evidence goes for historical research today. However, my point has been that you have been mischaracterizing how Christian believers see their God and their Christ, and you have been doing this to try to bolster your argument. You would be more effective in simply sticking to the evidence rather than relying on theological interpretation.

kcdad · 12-27-2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

aa5874
Do you understand that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition?

Nope. I understand you keep repeating it over and over again...

SO? What is your point? Everyone can forgive sins, it is no big deal... what is easier to say your sins are forgiven or to say take up your bed and and walk... but to show you that the son of man (A HUMAN BEING) has the power to forgive sin... read the story.

I don't think anyone can tell you anything.

Yep.

And your point is what? YOU believe everything you read? George Washington had wooden teeth and chopped down a cherry tree... google washington zeus, horatio greenough

And you are quoting this why? Jesus didn't rise on the third according to any story in the Bible.

Offspring? We are all sons of God... read the Pslams

Ghost of God... nice metaphor...

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I prefer to take information from a 2nd century writer of antiquity than a 21 century poster.

This second century writer?
Aristides (or Aristeides from the Greek: Ἀριστείδης, 530 BC - 468 BC) was an Athenian statesman, nicknamed "the Just".

You are as inaccurate as you repetitive and boring

oh you mean Aristides the Athenian, another Greek.

DancesWithCoffeeCups · 12-27-2009, 07:14 AM

Please keep this discussion civil and stop with the personal attacks.

Thanks everyone.

aa5874 · 12-27-2009, 08:45 AM

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Originally Posted by Larkin31

...You are asking for evidence of a lying Jesus and a lying group of followers. I think that that is rather some sort of poisoned strawman argument. The written evidence for these people is known to you and to everyone else. Are you seeking some additional find or discovery of some kind?

The manner in which Jesus, the Ghost of God, came into being is recorded in the NT. See Matthew 1.18 and Luke 1.35.

The manner in which Jesus, the Ghost of God, left the earth is recorded in the NT. See Luke 24.51 and Acts 1.9.

The HONEST and HOLY Church writers claimed that the Jesus stories are true. They claimed he was of the HOLY GHOST of God.

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Originally Posted by Larkin31

It has its obvious weaknesses as evidence goes for historical research today.

Well, once you admit that you have a weak case, weak evidence, for the historicity of Jesus then it is SENSELESS to continue with you weak arguments.

I have SOLID information that Jesus was considered to be the OFFSPRING of the HOLY GHOST.

I have ALL the NT and Church Writings.

You have nothing but fiction and forgeries.

You admit your evidence is WEAK

You have augmented my position that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition since the evidence of HJ is WEAK.

aa5874 · 12-27-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

Nope. I understand you keep repeating it over and over again...

SO? What is your point? Everyone can forgive sins, it is no big deal... what is easier to say your sins are forgiven or to say take up your bed and and walk... but to show you that the son of man (A HUMAN BEING) has the power to forgive sin... read the story.

I don't think anyone can tell you anything.

Yep.

And your point is what? YOU believe everything you read? George Washington had wooden teeth and chopped down a cherry tree... google washington zeus, horatio greenough

And you are quoting this why? Jesus didn't rise on the third according to any story in the Bible.

Offspring? We are all sons of God... read the Pslams

Ghost of God... nice metaphor...

This second century writer?
Aristides (or Aristeides from the Greek: Ἀριστείδης, 530 BC - 468 BC) was an Athenian statesman, nicknamed "the Just".

You are as inaccurate as you repetitive and boring

oh you mean Aristides the Athenian, another Greek.

OH! OH?

Please apologize for making false and erroneous statements about me. And promise you won't do it again.

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12-27-2009, 07:14 AM	#408
DancesWithCoffeeCups Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8,077	Please keep this discussion civil and stop with the personal attacks. Thanks everyone.

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