Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jesus W. Vader · 04-23-2007, 09:30 PM

Mods, feel free to move this to GRD if that's more appropos. So, I was wondering, how did we really get the idea of eternal hellfire. I know it shows up in the bible(Daniel) after the zoroastrians had it. The greeks had split Hades into Tartarus and Elysian fields while the Jews did the same with Sheol. Ok, so hell or afterlife in general is not reaaly mentioned in the first three quarters of the old testament and such. The Egyptians and Babylonians had relatively advanced ideas about it already, but not eternal hell for ordinary street sinners. So, what gives? Was the idea of eternal hell just a natural progression. Or....was their some sort of failure of previous social controls that made it necessary to make the afterlife more feared to the average person?

Chili · 04-23-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus W. Vader

Mods, feel free to move this to GRD if that's more appropos. So, I was wondering, how did we really get the idea of eternal hellfire. I know it shows up in the bible(Daniel) after the zoroastrians had it. The greeks had split Hades into Tartarus and Elysian fields while the Jews did the same with Sheol. Ok, so hell or afterlife in general is not reaaly mentioned in the first three quarters of the old testament and such. The Egyptians and Babylonians had relatively advanced ideas about it already, but not eternal hell for ordinary street sinners. So, what gives? Was the idea of eternal hell just a natural progression. Or....was their some sort of failure of previous social controls that made it necessary to make the afterlife more feared to the average person?

Nah, it is a good question and deserves a good answer, which really is not that hard to do.

I would argue that hell cannot be conceived to exist until heaven is known for the simple reason that a pair of opposites need each other to be made known. So therefore, it is not until Catholics were actually going to heaven that dissenters with their ass on fire to get to heaven were send back to hell trail of filthy rags and all. I think that is in the bible someplace but I do not know exactly where to find it.

More to the point, hell is the continuum of purgation without end and those would never know what heaven is like.

Toto · 04-23-2007, 11:47 PM

Check the archives:

Hell

Hell in the Bible (and the Qur'an)

Origin of Hell and the Bible

Malachi151 · 04-24-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus W. Vader

Mods, feel free to move this to GRD if that's more appropos. So, I was wondering, how did we really get the idea of eternal hellfire. I know it shows up in the bible(Daniel) after the zoroastrians had it. The greeks had split Hades into Tartarus and Elysian fields while the Jews did the same with Sheol. Ok, so hell or afterlife in general is not reaaly mentioned in the first three quarters of the old testament and such. The Egyptians and Babylonians had relatively advanced ideas about it already, but not eternal hell for ordinary street sinners. So, what gives? Was the idea of eternal hell just a natural progression. Or....was their some sort of failure of previous social controls that made it necessary to make the afterlife more feared to the average person?

I can't find the sources that I have read on this subject before off hand, but from my understanding of it, the concept probably originated with the Egyptians and evolved from there.

The Egyptians supposedly had several texts that talked about the "Lake of Fire" into which the evil souls were supposed to go for torment and punishment.

Seeing as Egyptian civilization was around for over 1,000 years, it's hard to classify Egyptian ideas strictly as say that Egyptians only believed in hell for elites, not the common people, etc.

Likewise, Egyptian culture rubbed off on everyone else in the Mediterranean and the ideas further transformed from there.

I like this quote by Plato as well:

Quote:

These things being thus constituted, when the dead arrive at the place to which their demon leads them severally, first of all they are judged, as well those who have lived well and piously, as those who have not. And those who appear to have passed a middle kind of life, proceeding to Acheron, and embarking in the vessels they have, on these arrive at the lake, and there dwell; and when they are purified, and have suffered punishment for the iniquities they may have committed, they are set free, and each receives the reward of his good deeds, according to his deserts. But those who appear to be incurable, through the magnitude of their offenses, either from having committed many and great sacrileges, or many unjust and lawless murders, or other similar crimes, these a suitable destiny hurls into Tartarus, whence they never come forth. But those who appear to have been guilty of curable yet great offenses--such as those who, through anger, have committed any violence against father or mother, and have lived the remainder of their life in a state of penitence, or they who have become homicides in a similar manner--these must, of necessity, fall into Tartarus. But after they have fallen, and have been there for a year, the wave casts them forth, the homicides into Cocytus, but the parricides and matricides into Pyriphlegethon. But when, being borne along, they arrive at the Acherusian lake, there they cry out to and invoke, some those whom they slew, others those whom they injured, and, invoking them, they entreat and implore them to suffer them to go out into the lake, and to receive them, and if they persuade them, they go out, and are freed from their sufferings, but if not, they are borne back to Tartarus, and thence again to the rivers. And they do not cease from suffering this until they have persuaded those whom they have injured, for this sentence was imposed on them by the judges. But those who are found to have lived an eminently holy life, these are they who, being freed and set at large from these regions in the earth as from a prison, arrive at the pure abode above, and dwell on the upper parts of the earth. And among these, they who have sufficiently purified themselves by philosophy shall live without bodies, throughout all future time, and shall arrive at habitations yet more beautiful than these which it is neither easy to describe, nor at present is there sufficient time for the purpose.
- PHÆDO; Plato, 4th century BCE

Edit:
Here is some info:

http://www.bibleorigins.net/hellsorigins.html

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/efl/efl06.htm

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hell.htm

Egyptian Lake of Fire:

04-23-2007, 09:30 PM	#1
Jesus W. Vader Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Dick and George's Bogus Brave New World Posts: 347	Hell...from where and why? Mods, feel free to move this to GRD if that's more appropos. So, I was wondering, how did we really get the idea of eternal hellfire. I know it shows up in the bible(Daniel) after the zoroastrians had it. The greeks had split Hades into Tartarus and Elysian fields while the Jews did the same with Sheol. Ok, so hell or afterlife in general is not reaaly mentioned in the first three quarters of the old testament and such. The Egyptians and Babylonians had relatively advanced ideas about it already, but not eternal hell for ordinary street sinners. So, what gives? Was the idea of eternal hell just a natural progression. Or....was their some sort of failure of previous social controls that made it necessary to make the afterlife more feared to the average person?

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04-23-2007, 11:47 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Check the archives: Hell Hell in the Bible (and the Qur'an) Origin of Hell and the Bible

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