Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HaRaAYaH · 08-31-2008, 10:47 AM

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Originally Posted by spamandham

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Originally Posted by storytime

In the context of Jewish redemption, remission for sins, this is the salvation being spoken of.

The salvation being spoken of is not remission of sin, but resurrection. The focus of the gospel story is Jesus' resurrection as the first fruits - proof that the Kingdom of God had already arrived, that the general resurrection was already happening, and that divine justice was imminent. Since divine justice was imminent, martyrdom could be seen as wisdom rather than foolishness. This is why Paul focuses on Jesus resurrection and has very little to say about Jesus beyond that.

Near the end of the book "Excavating Jesus", Crossan/Reed argue persuasively that the idea of bodily resurrection combined with divine justice ushering in the kingdom of god, were indeed Jewish ideas in the centuries leading up to the common era.

The idea that Jesus was an atoning sacrifice developed later, when it was clear that death had not been conquered afterall and a new theology was spun from a prior apocalyptic one.

Resurrection of the dead is clearly a Jewish idea. But you are attaching this to teshuvah and you are just not being accurate in describing Jewish belief and practice. This is not what Judaism holds or teaches.

sschlichter · 08-31-2008, 04:38 PM

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

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Originally Posted by Malachi151

This thread still doesn't address the fact that according to the Bible no one goes to heaven (except Jesus and a few other select folks).

That's only from a Christian point of view. Judaism does not hold that at all....

It is not from a Christian point of view either.

spamandham · 08-31-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

Resurrection of the dead is clearly a Jewish idea. But you are attaching this to teshuvah and you are just not being accurate in describing Jewish belief and practice. This is not what Judaism holds or teaches.

It doesn't matter what modern Jews hold or teach. We are discussing ancient Judaism, are we not?

HaRaAYaH · 08-31-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

Resurrection of the dead is clearly a Jewish idea. But you are attaching this to teshuvah and you are just not being accurate in describing Jewish belief and practice. This is not what Judaism holds or teaches.

It doesn't matter what modern Jews hold or teach. We are discussing ancient Judaism, are we not?

Are you discussing what the OT says or what Judaism says. They are NOT the same. Judaism is based on the OT as interpreted by the sages. The discussion of same appears mainly in the Talmud and other commentaries and was codified into Jewish law in the Mishneh Torah or the Shulcan Aruch.

OT<> Judaism OT=Karaism

spamandham · 08-31-2008, 09:03 PM

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

Are you discussing what the OT says or what Judaism says.

Neither. I'm discussing what 1st century Jews believed.

HaRaAYaH · 08-31-2008, 09:20 PM

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Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

Are you discussing what the OT says or what Judaism says.

Neither. I'm discussing what 1st century Jews believed.

I'm more of a second century man as the Talmud was developed between the 2nd and eighth centuries. I can't be sure but I'm pretty sure the ideas I espoused were central to Judaism at all times. They never looked at sin the way you are describing. I'd like to see some Jewish text that shows what you are saying...

spamandham · 08-31-2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

I can't be sure but I'm pretty sure the ideas I espoused were central to Judaism at all times. They never looked at sin the way you are describing. I'd like to see some Jewish text that shows what you are saying...

You need to read the 'apocryphal' scriptures (in particular, the Maccabees). There, the context is clear that Jews of the time period in discussion expected a bodily resurrection to usher in the kingdom of god. This was an evolution of the prior Jewish concept that divine justice happened in the here and now - sort of like cause and effect.

Paul makes it clear that if Jesus was not resurrected, then their faith was misplaced. IMHO, this demonstrates that Paul's ministry focused first and foremost on resurrection, and goes a long way toward understanding why Paul seems to know very little about Jesus other than that he was crucified, he was the Christ, and he was resurrected. What more do you need to know if the apocalypse is nigh?

Crossan/Reed devote several pages to this topic in "Excavating Jesus" near the end of the book.

HaRaAYaH · 08-31-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

You need to read the 'apocryphal' scriptures (in particular, the Maccabees). There, the context is clear that Jews of the time period in discussion expected a bodily resurrection to usher in the kingdom of god. This was an evolution of the prior Jewish concept that divine justice happened in the here and now - sort of like cause and effect.

Paul makes it clear that if Jesus was not resurrected, then their faith was misplaced. IMHO, this demonstrates that Paul's ministry focused first and foremost on resurrection, and goes a long way toward understanding why Paul seems to know very little about Jesus other than that he was crucified, he was the Christ, and he was resurrected. What more do you need to know if the apocalypse is nigh?

Crossan/Reed devote several pages to this topic in "Excavating Jesus" near the end of the book.

A couple of things:

1) The book of Macabees is such an obscure book to base your arguments on.

2) Quoting Paul or Jesus sheds no light on Judaism only on Christian belief.

3) Excavating Jesus is not a particularly Jewish document.

and most importantly

4) There is no question as I said before that Judaism believes in the resurrection of the dead will usher in the messianic period. Where you go off the deep end, from a Jewish point of view, is to tie the idea of repentance to the idea of salvation (not a Jewish concept at all as saving is not required). This may be a Christian idea or concept, but is alien to Judaism from biblical times until the present day. Repentance at any point in Jewish history is not related to the next world. Judaism is a this worldly religion.

spamandham · 08-31-2008, 10:25 PM

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

1) The book of Macabees is such an obscure book to base your arguments on.

Why? All textual evidence should be considered as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

2) Quoting Paul or Jesus sheds no light on Judaism only on Christian belief.

...both Jesus and Paul were depicted as Jews. Is there a reason to claim they were not?

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

3) Excavating Jesus is not a particularly Jewish document.

...it's a scholarly work. That's what matters.

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

Where you go off the deep end, from a Jewish point of view, is to tie the idea of repentance to the idea of salvation (not a Jewish concept at all as saving is not required).

I have made no such tie here.

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

Judaism is a this worldly religion.

...this world, with or without bodily resurrection?

Do you actually know any Jews (never mind what Jews in the first century believed)? I know several, and none of them believe that death is the permanent and final end of life, and if Crossan/Reed are correct, neither did first century Jews.

storytime · 08-31-2008, 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted by HaRaAYaH

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Originally Posted by storytime

I think you've misunderstood my post. Let me clarify a bit more. I'm reading from the KJV a Jewish story that offered salvation to Gentiles. How it was offered is through conversion to Judaism, unless you would think the Jewish people in the story were teaching a non-Jewish doctrine and Jesus was converting people to the gods of Rome.

If you are reading the KJV of anything then you are reading a Christian document. If you are reading the NT, you are reading a Christian document.

Salvation in and of itself is a Christian idea. While Judaism posits an after life, it is clearly a this worldly religion. The Talmud teaches:

I'm not saying as an atheist you are required to do anything. I am pointing out that acceptance of Judaism is not required for eternal life and that is clearly a theological difference with Christianity.

In Christianity sin is an affair of the heart. In Judaism it has nothing to do with the heart. It's the deed. Sin is really defined as "missing the mark". Exactly like archery. You do the best you can, but you occasionally miss the mark. Repentance which in Hebrew is called teshuvah which means return. Return to the law.

Quote:

"Repentance" means regret and contrition for sins or omissions of good deeds; and the resolve to start afresh.[2] Many phrases in English literature [and in the literature of other languages] sound this theme of repentance: "To turn over a new leaf," "to become a new man."

"Teshuvah" means something very different. It emphasizes not the idea of "newness," but of return.[3] A Jew is intrinsically good and wants to do good; sin is completely antithetical to his nature.[4] If he does transgress, the transgression does not impugn his essential self but is a foreign thing that has adhered to him.

Teshuvah, then, is the return to that essential, real self of a Jew. While a person is a composite of body and soul, in a Jew the soul is primary and the body secondary; and that soul is no less than "a part of G-d above."[5] Teshuvah is therefore the reforging of the essential union between the soul and its source, a union which was temporarily in abeyance through sin. In other words, a Jew, through teshuvah, reveals his true self and reasserts the soul's mastery over the body.

This is why teshuvah is relevant to all Jews,[6] even the completely righteous. Teshuvah is not just "repentance," the desire to atone for wrongdoing and start afresh, which would not apply to the completely righteous who do no wrong. Instead, the Alter Rebbe writes,[7] teshuvah is the concept of "the spirit shall return to the G-d who gave it"[8]: the soul continually strives to come closer to G-d, its source. And just as G-d is infinite, so, even the completely righteous Jew, can rise ever higher in his apprehension of G-dliness. He, too, is always doing teshuvah - returning to his source.

Teshuvah is relevant also to the completely wicked. No matter how low he has fallen, hope is never lost. He can always do teshuvah for he need not perform any revolutionary act, create a new existence. He need merely return to his inner self.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...destiny/03.htm

Do you consider the KJV an invalid script and Talmud the source of all truth?

You said: "Sin is really defined as "missing the mark".

And...so.."missing the mark" remains as transgression of Jewish law, and therewith "sin" defined. Ancient people who were not given any laws at Sinai were not accountable to the laws for Israel. How then were they called "sinners"? Simply by the precepts of Hebrew ideology. Did the Hebrews dictate rules for humanity? Or only for their own kindred?

Are you trying to distance Judaism from its sidekick Christianity? :huh:

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