Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mfaber · 07-15-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
nevermind

I had posted a long deconstruction of Daniel proving it could not have in any way been talking about Jesus, but reallized after that it just doesn't matter.

Cult members will believe what they want to believe.

Is THIS POST the one you mean? Thought it was an excellent post on Daniel, myself....close-minded fundies not withstanding.

Evolutionist · 10-19-2003, 07:01 PM

I read this thread a while ago, and reading what a christian wrote in a thread on another forum a few days ago- I thought I'd add her post to the thread, for people to digest, as she mentions prophesies not yet (as far as I can tell) discussed.

Quote:

See for yourselves how Jesus' birth, life and death fulfilled the prophesies concerning the coming Messiah.
Read the verses in each section, then link the PROPHECY'S to the passage that FULFILL'S it.

BIRTH

PROPHECY
Isaiah 7:14
Micah 5:2
Psalm 72:10
FULFILLMENT
Matthew 2:1
Matthew 2:1,11
Matthew 1:18,24-25

LIFE

PROPHECY
Isaiah 11:2
Isaiah 35:5-6a
Zechariah 9:9
FULFILLMENT
Luke 19:35-37a
Matthew 9:35
Matthew 3:16-17

DEATH

PROPHECY
Isaiah 53:7
Isaiah 53:5
Psalm 22:18
Isaiah 53:9
FULFILLMENT
John 19:34
Matthew 27:57-60
Matthew 27:12
Matthew 27:35

These are but a few of the many inspired prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus, proving that He is the Messiah.
EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT by Josh McDowell:
" The chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled...8 propehcis is 1 to 10". That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to comprehend this staggering probability, [Peter] Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take that in 10 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one?
Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing... eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time".

Jesus Christ IS the Alpha and the Omega.
All glory and praise to be to Him, our Lord and King

comments- either on the prophesies or "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell?

Kosh · 10-19-2003, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evolutionist

comments- either on the prophesies or "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell?

All refuted many times here. Best to read the IIDB prophesy page rather than rehash it all.

Secular Pinoy · 10-19-2003, 07:43 PM

Ron Price has written a direct rebuttal to Josh McDowell's chapter on Messianic Prophecies.

Bernard Muller · 10-19-2003, 10:29 PM

I have 2 pages on 'Daniel', where I treat, among many things, of "weeks" or "years", KJV mistranslations, who is the anointed so-called prince, etc.
Daniel exposed

Here is an extract:

>> according to the 'Encyclopedia of BIBLE DIFFICULTIES', Gleason L.Archer:
"the word for "week" is sabu [Hebrew in italics, approximate rendition only (the phonetic signs could not be reproduced)], which is derived from seba, the word for "seven". Its normal plural is feminine in form: s_buot. Only in this chapter of Daniel does it appears in the masculine plural sabuim ... it is strongly suggestive of the idea 'heptad' (a series or combination of seven), rather than a "week" in the sense of a series of seven days."
[SNIPPED] ...

In conclusion, "weeks" (as most often translated) cannot mean 'seven days durations' and consequently is highly suspect. Also, "weeks" (or "sevens") certainly does not read as "week of years" (seven years period), as it is sometimes translated (or often interpreted, as in the NIV Study Bible). 'Sabuim' has no connotation with 'one year duration', but can be considered as derived from "seven". On the last point, I ask my readers to be patient: I will prove later that 'sabuim' means "literally sevens"(as per the NKJV alternative translation for "weeks") or "units of seven" (as per the NASB alternative translation for "weeks") <<

Best regards, Bernard

PS: Peter, you are back! I did not get your book. Maybe a change of plan?
I may look into your monumental expose tomorrow.

Secular Pinoy · 10-20-2003, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bernard Muller
PS: Peter, you are back!

He is? But the last post he did in this thread was July 8th. I just hope he returns to his old self here soon.

Toto · 10-20-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secular Pinoy
Ron Price has written a direct rebuttal to Josh McDowell's chapter on Messianic Prophecies.

That's Robert Price, not Ron Price.

And Peter is not back yet.

Radcliffe Emerson · 10-20-2003, 12:13 PM

Peter, I suspect you do not love our Lord and will be cast into flames!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Alot of what you typed goes into the reasons why the Jews never accepted the New Testament character Jesus as a Messiah.
In fact, I've read quotes from Rabbis saying the NT concepts attributed to Jesus are NOT even Jewish, they're Greek!
Why would anyone with half a brain accept stories with Greek concepts about a Jewish Messiah?

I'm sure some Xtians refuse to believe the concepts in the NT are Greek.

I also don't know where the '2 messiahs' idea comes from, maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls?
I do know Jewish Rabbinic history says their belief has always been that there will be 2 messiahs simultaneously, and they will usher in world peace the first time they arrive.

Obviously, the NT got that all wrong.

Again, I'm sure Xtians will respond with "you don't know the ways of our Lord, he can change his mind, etc".

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10-19-2003, 07:43 PM	#24
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	Ron Price has written a direct rebuttal to Josh McDowell's chapter on Messianic Prophecies.

10-19-2003, 10:29 PM	#25
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	I have 2 pages on 'Daniel', where I treat, among many things, of "weeks" or "years", KJV mistranslations, who is the anointed so-called prince, etc. Daniel exposed Here is an extract: >> according to the 'Encyclopedia of BIBLE DIFFICULTIES', Gleason L.Archer: "the word for "week" is sabu [Hebrew in italics, approximate rendition only (the phonetic signs could not be reproduced)], which is derived from seba, the word for "seven". Its normal plural is feminine in form: s_buot. Only in this chapter of Daniel does it appears in the masculine plural sabuim ... it is strongly suggestive of the idea 'heptad' (a series or combination of seven), rather than a "week" in the sense of a series of seven days." [SNIPPED] ... In conclusion, "weeks" (as most often translated) cannot mean 'seven days durations' and consequently is highly suspect. Also, "weeks" (or "sevens") certainly does not read as "week of years" (seven years period), as it is sometimes translated (or often interpreted, as in the NIV Study Bible). 'Sabuim' has no connotation with 'one year duration', but can be considered as derived from "seven". On the last point, I ask my readers to be patient: I will prove later that 'sabuim' means "literally sevens"(as per the NKJV alternative translation for "weeks") or "units of seven" (as per the NASB alternative translation for "weeks") << Best regards, Bernard PS: Peter, you are back! I did not get your book. Maybe a change of plan? I may look into your monumental expose tomorrow.

10-20-2003, 12:13 PM	#28
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Peter, I suspect you do not love our Lord and will be cast into flames! Sorry, couldn't resist. Alot of what you typed goes into the reasons why the Jews never accepted the New Testament character Jesus as a Messiah. In fact, I've read quotes from Rabbis saying the NT concepts attributed to Jesus are NOT even Jewish, they're Greek! Why would anyone with half a brain accept stories with Greek concepts about a Jewish Messiah? I'm sure some Xtians refuse to believe the concepts in the NT are Greek. I also don't know where the '2 messiahs' idea comes from, maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls? I do know Jewish Rabbinic history says their belief has always been that there will be 2 messiahs simultaneously, and they will usher in world peace the first time they arrive. Obviously, the NT got that all wrong. Again, I'm sure Xtians will respond with "you don't know the ways of our Lord, he can change his mind, etc".

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