adren@line

what flaws and what questions?

shoot.
but I thought it was my job?:banghead: :notworthy:

because I find being able to incite you to reply with 4 lines of ill-explained excuses entertaining.

which ones?

provide some proof.

too bad im not a theist.

*(A non-response to this post displays dodging on the part of ElectroGod).

GenesisNemesis

First, atheists read and post about why they don't believe in God because they want to see what other atheists think about their (dis)beliefs. Second, Creationists do not use science, and they want to get their "science" (which is the Bible) in schools, so we must do something about that. Third, atheists "reaffirm" themselves and each other because they don't think "hm, how can I refute God?" Something usually comes up in their heads, and they set up the arguments, wondering what others think about it.

I agree. I believe it's mostly because some atheists are more intolerant of religion and what they may call "superstition" than others.

I don't think atheists have a choice in disbelieving in God. They simply see logical paths more than faithful guides. You don't really "convert" to atheism, you "deconvert" to atheism. For me, it definitely wasn't a choice. I was once a New-Age believer, and I also believed in God, but then I noticed that all I really wanted was the feeling of belief. I couldn't believe any longer once I realized that.

Fortuna

Oy vey :huh: You misunderstand. Allow me to clarify..........

I don't call Theists "morons" only because because they are Theists, only the ones who are also morons.

As I said, it's only the lunatic fringe of Christians that denies the idea of evolution and take literally the Torah creation myths.

:banghead:

jeffevnz

First of all, let's distinguish between refuting belief in God, and refuting creationism. I think it's hopeless to try and persuade theists that there is no God, and I don't think it's necessary anyway. You stand a better chance trying to refute creationism. And there's a great need for it because it's total nonsense, and creationists are waging a war to ram it down everyone's throats.

Personally, I don't spend much time refuting either. I have no patience with people who can't think logically. But I tip my hat to my atheist friends who fight the good fight for us.
Even when they mean well, theists tend to be very condescending. They assume their views are correct and that anyone who disagrees is simply misguided. It's annoying, especially since the theistic viewpoint doesn't make sense. Add to that the fact that theists outnumber atheists 20 to 1, so the average atheist encounters theists way more often than the reverse. All in all, being an atheist who engages in debate with theists is an extremely irritating and tiring experience. It takes a lot of self-control not to resort to insults and namecalling.

Atheists, by contrast, seldom assume anything. They will almost always have reasons for believing as they do, and well thought out reasons at that. They will gladly and (hopefully) patiently share those reasons with you if you ask. In my experience, theists usually don't have reasons for their beliefs. They have canned responses they got from someone else, that they use to defend beliefs they only hold because of indoctrination.
I was raised Catholic, and was a believer through most of my childhood. But I've always been a ponderer too. I'm the kind of person who likes to understand things around him. Every since I was little, I wondered how we know God exists. At first, I assumed there was a good reason, and that I just hadn't seen it yet. But I searched and asked questions and didn't find it. Only half-baked "proofs" and wishful thinking. The more I searched, the less and less likely it seemed. Eventually I decided he probably wasn't out there.

So it was a gradual process. I haven't reverted in the least. If anything, my views have continued to crystalize in the 15 or so years since I deconverted.

lulu

"studying about how to refute creationists?"

++++++++++++++ I'm a zoo educator and devoted to teaching the concepts of evolution, adaptations of species and the great interconnectedness of all living things.

Creationists deny the truth of these things and diminish them. Creationists insist that their "truth" be taught in public schools. Creationists often challenge me when I'm at work, expecting to be given an equal forum for their "truth."

I'll go to my grave battling the agenda of "creationism" or "intelligent design" or by whatever name it's called. BRAINWASHING is what it is and it has no place in institutions of science. They can have their churches and parochial schools, of course...but keep that stuff away from anyone outside those venues!

And THAT is why I spend time studying about how to refute creationists.

Emil

1)
Not all atheists do this. Most I know, never discuss, just like the average theist. However, it is my experience that a higher percentage go atheists are trying to discuss it. It problably has something to do with the society being very theist friendly and often non-friendly towards atheists. Some could also be the enlightment type, who, like the old enlightment philosophers, try to enlighten the population. Personally, I belong to both groups.

2) Well, theist's spread more stupid arguments then atheists do. I try not to insult people, as I see it as inappropriate behaviour in a debate.

3) I wasn't brought up to be anything. My mother is a new-age believer, but she never really tried to convert me. My father is an atheist, but a stupid one. His arguments were terrible, so they didn't persuade me. Instead they reminded me, that even the side which is correct, can make bad arguments.

DBT

There are several distinct concepts that fall generally under the definition of 'belief'
A 'belief' held without the justification of verifiable evidence is just a form of faith. As there is a complete absence of verifiable evidence to support a justified belief in the existence of God, that belief can only be called unjustified.

Gawen

That's gotta be tough. I'd tell them there's a time and a place for everything...and this ain't either for religious discussion.

...:thumbs:

BALDUCCI

I think it is misinformed to consider atheists as a homogeneous or monolithic group. For example there is a huge difference between an atheist who has come to his position through marxism, and a politically conservative scientist who sees no need for a religion.

I dont even know whether I am an atheist. I dont set out a stall in the market-place to proclaim that there is no god, even although currently I dont believe there is; at least I am yet to come across a conception of a "god" that makes any sense to me. I, like some others who have posted, respond to proselytizing from religious groups or individuals, perhaps trying to convert me, or my children, or in some other way intruding into my social space. If they keep away, then I proclaim nothing. I am not about to go and stand outside churches with placards.

So, the proposition regarding religious faith, god, heaven, sin, etc comes from outside, and I respond that it is either unconvincing, unpleasant, unneccessary, silly, or whatever.

Now the exception comes when fundamentalist religious nuts try to push aspects of their doctrine that may interfere with my life or the freedom of people in society to be the way they are. In Scotland, that means people who try to stop ferries working on Sunday, or stone shops that stay open on Sunday. In the US, it involves pushing creationism in schools, attacking homosexuality, attacking a woman's right to choose, attacking sex education etc. I see these as reactionaries with political motives dressed up in religious garb to try to get special traction. I dont believe, personally, that the evangelical movement in the USA has anything to do with Christianity or religion. These are bigots who want to control social behaviour, and they use religion as a way of raising money and gathering an uninformed following of dupes.

So counter-attacking them has nothing to do with atheism or religion because their religious posture is fake. They use religion as a baker uses icing to dress up a mediocre cake. It is impossible for me to imagine that Bishop Tutu (a great and wonderful man) believed in the same god as Jerry Falwell. This representation of monotheism is an infantile conceit.

I find something very different happens when I debate religion with close friends, especially one friend whom I treasure closely, and who is very committed to her religion. I tend to do the typical atheist thing, pointing out the inconsistencies in the gospels, showing how the Catholic Church uses special-pleading and tricks to justify its reading of the gospels, talking about archeological research etc. At the end of the discussion, she tells me that she can accept many of these arguments, but it makes no difference to her faith.

Now, I know she is a very intelligent woman, and by faith she doesnt mean "not thinking" (although many religious people do carry this kind of mind-numbing faith). What it boils down to is that she has an emotional attachment to her beliefs and they enrich her life. It gives her comfort to believe there is a god, and the world would be scary without one. It enriches her view of the universe. For me its the opposite..believing in a god (at least any of those presented to me so far) makes the universe a whole lot less interesting and interferes with my own sense of mystery and creativity. We agree that we are both spiritual beings, and that all spiritual beings need some comforting conceptions, whether they are myths, ideas or whatever. After all, much of the great poetry of the world is a myth, and yet it moves us, maybe even to tears.

So, it all depends...I guess. All I know is that I strongly support liberation theology, detest fundamentalism (whether it be Christian, Jewish or Islamic), am deeply moved by some of Jesus's sayings as well as those of Buddha, some Hindu ideas, etc; consider creationism an attack on our society, and loath homophobic and misogynist bigots, and dont need a god to make my life full, exciting, and spiritual. I also detest sacrilege.

I also believe that there are many closet atheists in America because America is so backward in allowing freedom of belief. It is stunning that 2007 was the first time in the history of the Republic, that a US senator publicly admitted to being an atheist, and the ground tremors that that caused did not make me feel warm about the kind of society America is. Its ironic because so many of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Its a massive contradiction that America insists on a separation between church and state, proclaims freedom of belief, and yet actively oppresses atheists (like having atheists fired from universities). America has a long way to go before it can claim to have joined the community of civilised countries. We have right-wingers in the UK but you never hear them proclaiming that the UK is a Christian State, the way the right do constantly in the USA

Jo

It is commendable that after a debate, that you went and studied up on the topic (I assume) of evolution.

It would seem (though it does not apply to myself) that a fair number of atheists are ex-christians, who through self-education, changed their positions, and with further studying merely solidified their position.

As for myself, I have never been a Christian and will never be one. In fact, I had no idea what Christianity was until age 13. But by then I had already been immersed in science and the wonder of learning "how" things worked/occurred. By the time I was exposed to Christianity and creationism, it was merely laughable to me.

I am also lucky to be in a country that considers religion a "personal choice" that does not need to impact on the working mechanisms of education and social life. My first introduction to creationism was on the internet, via a creationist that was misrepresenting science. I found it a mere annoyance, until I realised that these people were common in some nations to the point of using it to manipulate education systems, political systems and social life (Bible Belt for example). I did not set out on a crusade because of this. I merely decided that whenever I see science bastardised, I would stay silent. I do not actively go looking for creationists, in fact I wish they would jsut disappear.

I can't answer for all atheists, however I treat everyone equally - until they say something silly.

I am animist agnostic atheist. I've been all three all my life. They do not look set to change.