aa5874

It is just not feasible to me that Philo, Josephus and Pliny, well known writers of the first century to have just invented a group with such detail.

It is not credible that Philo, Josephus and Pliny could have written about the Essenes while this group of people should have been in existence, and that no-one detected the false story about the Essenes.

Josephus wrote about or mentioned the Essenes in three different works, Wars of the Jews, Antiquities of the Jews and The Life of Flavius Josephus.

The Essenes were in existence when Josephus wrote, it would appear that the works of Josephus were well known yet no known writer of antiquity did write about or accuse Josephus of the blantant and repeated invention of Essenes.

The complete opposite occured.

Pliny the Elder confirmed that Essenes did exist and even gave a geographic location of the Essenes.

It is inexplicable that three writers of antiquity from Egypt, Judaea, and Rome would invent the Essenes while the supposed group were located as they were writing.

The invention story may be plausible if Josephus, Philo and Pliny wrote about the Essenes as a group that lived hundreds of years before their time, but not when the Essenes are supposed to be actually in existence as the writers themselves.

The invention story of the Essenes by Josephus does not make any sense.

maryhelena

I think perhaps its worth while keeping in mind that Philo was a philosopher. A man dealing with ideas not historical certainty or accuracy. Life styles were of interest to him - and by all accounts, the whole issue of marriage and women was rather a topical issue. With basically a negative view of woman......

The Therapeutae lived a life of contemplation, a life of self awareness, of self fulfilment, of self advancement; a life of solitude and spiritual endeavor.

In contrast, Philo’ Essenes lived a communal life, a practical life, a life of physical work, an active life, an open life, as opposed to a life of purely self realization. A life of social responsibility.

Could well be, that by giving such an Ideal life to his Essenes, Philo was taking a stand against the self-interest life style of the Therapeutae. Or maybe he was trying to say - you can’t have one without the other!

How did Josephus get away, so to speak, with making Philo’ Essenes ‘historical’? As mentioned above, Philo makes no mention of the three Essene prophets that Josephus made ‘historical’. He was also dead when Josephus published his work.

Josephus writes about having King Agrippa read over his history of the Jewish people. King Agrippa ‘attested to the truth” of what Josephus had written. All this as a counter measure to his fellow historian Justus who claimed that Josephus has lied about the war - and what else? Who knows but there could well have been an issue over the Essenes......In regard to Agrippa 11, it seems that his father Agrippa 1, was at one time financially indebted to Alexander the Arabarch of Alexander - and that his sister, Bernice, was, for a short while, married to his son, Marcus. The brother of Alexander being Philo........hence a sort of family connection, or at least a family indebtedness to the brother of Philo.....

Justus, for argument, might well have said - Josephus is putting one over on you people - there were no Essenes in the land of Israel. Agrippa 11 being put in a spot - has Josephus turning to the writings of Philo - and having his own family connection with Alexander the Arabarch of Alexander - brother of the said Philo - concedes the point!

Why did Josephus do all of this? Josephus had a number of hats in the ring......historian, general, priest and prophet. Hence, by looking at the writings of Josephus as being just history - one fails to take the full measure of the man.

aa5874

Philo wrote works that were not philosophical like "Embassy to Gaius" and "Flaccus".

You need to show that Philo's writings on the "Embassy to Gaius" and "Flaccus" were historically inaccurate.

That is a very weak or even absurd argument. You are implying that Philo must mention every detail or character that Josephus wrote about with respect to the Essenes.

In the works of Josephus, he wrote about many events and characters that are not found in any writings of Philo.

Who knows? It could well have been that Justus lied about the war....Who knows? There could well have been NO issue over the Essenes...Who knows?[/quote]

For argument sake, Justus might well have said no such thing.

What did Josephus do? You have failed to show how Philo, Josephus, or Pliny could have invented the Essenes while claiming at the same time that the Essenes were their contemporaries.

maryhelena

And you have failed to provide any evidence for the historical existence of Philo's Essenes.

And please, don't ascribe something to me that I don't uphold i.e. your above, last, statement makes no sense in regard to what I have posted on this issue.

bacht

Yes, the more I learn about ancient Jewish history the less original the Christian tradition seems to be. As you say, many if not most of the ideas and practices had Jewish forerunners:

- belief in afterlife and final judgment: Hasidim, Pharisees (originally Persia?)
- authoritative text: NT emulates OT in miniature - founding myths, instructions etc
- orthodox interpretation of scripture: Hebrew specialists in 2nd temple times, similar to Latin specialists in medieval Europe
- monasticism and asceticism: Qumran, Essenes
- sacramental feast and baptism: Qumran, Essenes
- prosletyzing: diaspora synagogues, vernacular scripture and writings
- readers, cantors: pre-Christian synagogues

aa5874

You have the writings, the written statements, of Philo, Josephus and Pliny the Elder why do you not accept the evidence for the Essenes?

You have totally failed to show that Josephus invented the Essenes.

maryhelena

And you have totally failed to provide any historical evidence for the existence of Philo' Essenes...................so, now.....lets just accept that we both have different opinions on the matter - and until such time as there is historical evidence to support the existence of the Essenses, I see no reason to change my position. My reasons for my position have been outlined in my previous posts.....

aa5874

You have all the written evidence or information about the Essenes from Philo, Josephus and Pliny, why have you failed to accept them as evidence?

What other evidence do you want from me?

I am not the author of the writings of Philo, Josephus, or Pliny.

Toto

aa5874: this question has been asked and answered. Time to move on.

mountainman

Dear aa5874,

It is not "inexplicable" since quite clearly the scrolls and codices by which these three authors were being preserved in the fourth century were all in the possession of Eusebius and his imperial scriptoria. Therefore one possible explication is that Eusebius did more that interpolate just the TF into Josephus, but rather added a number of scattered references to a brand new form of Jewish "therapeutae", rather than the standard Hellenistic therapeutae whom were dispersed ubiquitously throughout the empire and beyond the empire, but who celebrated annual gatherings in Egypt.

We need to rule out the possibility that Josephus may be a Eusebian mouthpiece. I am not sure how one might go about this. Any ideas?


Dear maryhelena,

The entire ancient historical issue of the therapeutae needs to be reexamined with the academic scrutiny which has previously been directed at the essenes. The identity of the therapeutae described in Philo and the identity of the therapeutae of Asclepius described by many authors of the period between Philo and the fourth century (eg: Galen he physician) needs to be critically examined. It is possible these therapeutae are one and the same archaeologically abundant group in the Roman empire at that epoch.

Secondly, once the above identity is established, we need to be very much aware that the politics of the fourth century attendant with Eusebius was totally anti-Therapeutae, as is abundantly evident in Against Hierocles, Vita Constantini, Historia Ecclesiastica, etc.

Constantine targeted the temples of the Asclepian therapeutae with utter destruction. Analyses by modern ancient historians leave as "inexplicable" (to borrow the word from aa5874) the reason for this attack. Lane-Fox alone suggests a cause of the attack is the figure of Apollonius of Tyana, whose writings were preserved, and who patronised the ancient temple of Asclepius at Aegaea.

It is as if Eusebius wants us to think that there was an ancient Jewish version of the Hellenistic therapeutae -- a most revered group in antiquity -- which are named in the fiction "Essenes". When Emperor Julian referred to the "Fabrication of the Christians" and "the wretched Eusebius", he was not just refering (IMO) to the new testament. Examine the mass of forgeries and false-writings known to have flooded the fourth century. The ruling class secure in their militaristic supremacy had utter control of the standard greek preservation centers of writings, and all the major libraries, etc, etc, etc.



Why did Josephus write that "[Jesus] was the Christ!"?

Answer that question first please maryhelena and aa5874 and anyone else for that matter. And in answering that question please be aware of its consequences.

Did Josephus write "[Jesus] was the Christ!"? Not too many people are arguing that the TF is totally genuine. Josephus did not write this. Eusebius wrote this into Josephus. What else did Eusebius add to Josephus?

Eusebius was commissioned to write polemic to support Constantine's destruction of the temples of the therapeutae of Asclepius. Was there anything good about the therapeutae at all? Well, they had this ancient splinter group you see who were called Essenes and who were Jewish therapeutae, but who did not recognise (in a very fourth century christian way) the equality of male and female, and so forth, and so on ....


Best wishes,


Pete