Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 12-15-2006, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Fiction for me is where someone sits down to write an account not intended to be based on reality.

When I call something a work of fiction, I mean not only that the author knew that the events didn't really happen, but he also did not expect his readers to think they had really happened. I don't believe the gospel authors expected their readers to suppose that they were reading history or biography.

The gospels began, I think, as loose analogues to Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet. They became popular with some Christians; and, after some time, a few Christians in certain places began to suppose that the stories were about the founder of their movement. They convinced others, and over a period of some generations the historicist position became orthodox.

A gross oversimplification, obviously, but something like that.

spin · 12-15-2006, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

When I call something a work of fiction, I mean not only that the author knew that the events didn't really happen, but he also did not expect his readers to think they had really happened. I don't believe the gospel authors expected their readers to suppose that they were reading history or biography.

The gospels began, I think, as loose analogues to Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet. They became popular with some Christians; and, after some time, a few Christians in certain places began to suppose that the stories were about the founder of their movement. They convinced others, and over a period of some generations the historicist position became orthodox.

I'm sure you can understand that I wouldn't agree with this. Ancient documents of any length didn't get chugged out for no reason. Gibran was a phenomenon of the print age. Literary efforts needed communities or big bucks behind them. Some form of Jesus messianism existed before the literature.

spin

Thomas II · 12-15-2006, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

What is the full extent of our knowledge of John the Baptist? Was there a grave for this person, and did people attend it? Was this person "really real", or he is also a legend? Who, besides Josephus and the Christians wrote about him? Are there any good books on this subject?

You might find this interesting...

www.geocities.com/psychohistory2001/index.html

Then scroll down to John the Baptist...

Toto · 12-15-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

You might find this interesting...

www.geocities.com/psychohistory2001/index.html

Then scroll down to John the Baptist...

You mean John the Baptist; Father and Lover (An analysis of eating disorders)?

Quote:

We have here the representation of the murder of the Goat, the Father, Dionysus, the primal Western god, as had been represented by the Chorus of the Goats in Aeschylus' tragedy.

The one "who came first", and the version of the Gospel that belittled him versus Jesus, was the subject of the all affair, the assassinated Beast.

The Gospel, on one side tells us the whole story, on the other makes a lot of smoke to conceal the ocus pocus, the magic of the substitution of the Father with the Son, in the spirit of the Pauline hallucination.

Jesus came in his name, was baptized by him, meaning, He was born from him, as every baptism is synonymous of birth.

As in any initiation puberty rite, the son is born again from the Fathers of the tribe.

Even today, the new born is taken from his mother to be born again, through Baptism, from the Father, as Jesus was re - born from his Father, John the Baptist, the Holy Goat. In Christian theology, the compromise between the Father and the Son finds its expression in the condensation between the two, and the new- born is baptized "In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

Decapitation is castration. Freud lives.

Thomas II · 12-15-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You mean John the Baptist; Father and Lover (An analysis of eating disorders)?

Decapitation is castration. Freud lives.

The point is that they got rid of any historical reference and kept all the mythological in place of it. Heck some people still believe that the
"snake" "talked" to Eve and made her "eat the forbidden fruit", and then she "gave some to Adam", and he "ate" too...and they saw they were naked!
So what are we talking about here?
An actual snake or a symbol?
An actual apple,or a symbol?
An actual tree or a symbol?
Actual "talking" or a symbol?

All are symbols!

The issue is then to FIND THE MEANING of the symbolism used.

And yes, John the Baptist is a father figure to Jesus.
Did "God Father" actually shouted "This is my beloved son"?
Nope.
What does it means then?
A father and son exchange, where the son is set forth by his "father", "mentor", "teacher" to increase in stature as the father himself diminishes...

Doug Shaver · 12-16-2006, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Some form of Jesus messianism existed before the literature.

Well, I intended no suggestion that the gospel authors invented Christianity.

I don't think Christianity started with one person or even one particular group of people. I think that what became orthodox Christianity originated as a large number of sects whose ideas were amalgamated with modifications over many generations. The writing of the gospels was just one of many steps in that process.

spin · 12-16-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

I think that what became orthodox Christianity originated as a large number of sects whose ideas were amalgamated with modifications over many generations. The writing of the gospels was just one of many steps in that process.

That was many steps in itself, but I think the basic idea is reasonable.

spin

Doug Shaver · 12-17-2006, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

That was many steps in itself

Agreed.

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