Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 12-25-2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse - Mt 25:46 - the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. "Eternal punishment" means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture.

Huxley, what aboiut this part?

Aionios does not mean eternal but even if you want to translate it that way, there is nothing that speaks of eternal punishment. Kolasis does not mean active punishment or torture. It comes from a word which means to "cut back," or "prune," and it is used figuratively to mean "chastizement," "correction" or "penalty" (in a legal sense). In the context of Matthew 25, it refers to annihilation in Gehenna just like every other reference to Gehenna.

John A. Broussard · 12-25-2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse - Mt 25:46 - the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. "Eternal punishment" means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture.

Since you have such a clear vision of hell, I wonder if you could take time to answer a few further questions about this realm of eternal punishment which surpasses even the worst of concentration camps.

My main question is, "Who is going there?"

What happens to the billions of people who have ever lived who don't believe as you do? What of the unborn, who make up much larger numbers than those who have been born? What of toddlers who haven't had the chance to qualify for a place in hell by sinning?

I'm looking forward to your answers.

Huxley · 12-27-2005, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Hey, Huxley, that was rather interesting.

What you say seems reasonable and plausible, and points to how badly the scriptures might have been misinterpreted by generations of Christians of all sorts of sects over the centuries.

Not that it makes a lot of difference in practical terms, the evidence for any sort of god, let alone one in any sort of middle eastern tradition being so slim.

But still, good argument material

David B

Thanks. You are right though, that is still no proof that there is a God. I am not sure if you thought I was still a Christian, but I am not. I have for now deconverted into being an Agnostic.

The things I brought up in my last post are just mere tips of an iceburg when it comes to the nature of that very book. For instance, I can point out contradictions in the Bible, show people that Salvation through Christ is for an elect group of people unmentioned and unknown. And unless you are "quickened" by the Holy Spirit somehow, you're doomed. Calvanists will confirm this. They believe that salvation is 'predestined'. They also believe if you do not automatically understand the Bible and you have questions, even little things such as bit and pieces on what a particular verse means, that we should just give up trying to understand because we never will. In other words, it was never meant to be for that person.

Other things to consider:

1) Assuming there is eternity in God's Kingdom on Earth as prescribed in Revelation 21:11-27, this will only consist of 144,000 people as prescribed in Revelation 7:4; 14:1-3; 21:17, how many people have died altogether from 2,000 ago? Billions right? So, who is to say that out of all of those people, 144,000 have already been selected, that is, if there is even a such of a plan set forth?

2) What is there to do for all of eternity other than eat manna as prescribed in John 6:58 and Revelation 2:17? What could possibly be worse than eternal boredom?

3) Eternal life. Some say those 144,000 will be resurrected in the form of a human body, some say in a only spiritual form. First, we have a contradiction. It's either one or the other. Second, you as well as I know that the sun will eventually fade down, eventually burning itself out and every planet in this galaxy will be one big iceball. In other words, freezing for an eternity on a planet that has no other lifeform whatsoever, other than those 144,000 redeemed, would not be suffering?

I could continue to present examples ad infinitum, but each time I bring up those questions, they are answered by Christians either by an empty screen, or excuses such as "casting pearls before swine" as prescribed in Matthew 7:6, or "Don't worry about it, God has a perfect plan. Those things don't affect one's Salvation anyways", completely missing the point altogether.

So much for Christians and their gospel, huh?

Thomas II · 12-28-2005, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ128.HTM

ne cannot deny the traditional Christian doctrine of hell and honestly call oneself an orthodox Christian. No mainline or self-proclaimed evangelical denomination denies this doctrine (Seventh-Day Adventists being a special case), and of course, Catholicism and Orthodoxy have always held to this belief as well. It has often been noted that Jesus Himself spoke more about hell than He did about heaven. The following are the major scriptural evidences for both the existence of, and the everlasting duration of hell:

The Greek meaning of aionios ("eternal," "everlasting") is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse - Mt 25:46 - the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. "Eternal punishment" means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture.

The Jehovah's Witnesses render "punishment" as "cutting-off" in their bogus New World Translation in an attempt to establish their doctrine of annihilationism, but this is impermissible. If one is "cut off," that is a one-time event, not an eternal one. If I am cut off the phone with somebody, would anyone think to say I am "cut off eternally?" This word, kolasis, is defined in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as "(eternal) punishment." Vine (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) says the same thing, as does A.T. Robertson - all impeccable language scholars. Robertson writes:

There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life.

{Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, vol. 1, p. 202}

Since it is preceded by aionios, then it is punishment which continues forever (not non-existence which continues indefinitely). The Bible couldn't be more clear than it is. What more could be expected?

Likewise for the related Greek word aion, which is used throughout Revelation for eternity in heaven (e.g., 1:18, 4:9-10, 5:13-14, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 22:5), and also for eternal punishment (14:11, 20:10). Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." The "book of life" clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact.

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Now, I have als read some websites and your guys posting on the proof of hell not being eternal. The question is, which one do I believe? Which one is true?

Well, Yahweh is the name given to a local tribal "god" located in the volcano HOREB, Sinai Peninsula, active at the time and extinct now.
All this underground fire and brimstone are simply VOLCANIC elements.
People sacrificed to the volcano god were consumed by fire. Volcano erupts, god must be angry...Needs sacrifice...And there went the child or virgin into the "lake of fire", the lava,magma,caldera...Get the picture?
Hell is inside a volcano, in the caldera!

BigJim · 12-28-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Giggle if you want, but Half-Life is in the American mainstream. About half of the adult U.S. population thinks the sun revolves around the earth or don't know whether or not it does.

Got a source for that claim?

Chris Weimer · 12-28-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Aionios does not mean eternal but even if you want to translate it that way, there is nothing that speaks of eternal punishment.

It used to mean eternal, but eternal used to not mean everlasting. Eternal comes from the Latin aeternus "lasting for an age". In the strictest sense, aeternus means "lasting for ages" and not "lasting for ever". However, it did stretch to mean such a thing as we think of eternal currently. The same with aionios. What may be a strict definition may not be the exact literal definition.

John A. Broussard · 12-28-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJim

Got a source for that claim?

You got me!

Harris, Gallup, Jon D. Miller put it at about 20% believe the sun revolves around the earth. I can't run down the number who don't know, so I'll have to leave it at that figure, though I'll keep looking.

Thanks for catching me up on that.

This is also a good place to bring up a somewhat more relevant poll. Time mag. 1997.

63% believe in hell, where people are punished forever after they die.
1% believe that immediately after death they think they will go to hell.

Diogenes the Cynic · 12-28-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

It used to mean eternal, but eternal used to not mean everlasting. Eternal comes from the Latin aeternus "lasting for an age". In the strictest sense, aeternus means "lasting for ages" and not "lasting for ever". However, it did stretch to mean such a thing as we think of eternal currently. The same with aionios. What may be a strict definition may not be the exact literal definition.

I agree. I don't actually think "eternal" is always an unreasonable translation. It's not literal but it's (sometimes, not all the time) reasonable. and that's one of the reasons I don't think quibbling about aionios is reall very helpful to either side.

BigJim · 12-30-2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Harris, Gallup, Jon D. Miller put it at about 20% believe the sun revolves around the earth. I can't run down the number who don't know, so I'll have to leave it at that figure, though I'll keep looking.

Thanks for catching me up on that.

No problem. Glad to see my BS detector is still functioning

Wads4 · 12-30-2005, 11:08 AM

" Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." The "book of life" clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact. "

We don't have to explain any of the incoherent ramblings in Revelations. Hell is a primitive idea developed by savage minds,-originating if I am not mistaken by later Greek thought. Even the Jews only spoke of Sheol and Gehenna,- not exactly the Hell-fire so beloved by Christians.

12-30-2005, 11:08 AM	#30
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Half-Life " Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: "and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." The "book of life" clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact. " We don't have to explain any of the incoherent ramblings in Revelations. Hell is a primitive idea developed by savage minds,-originating if I am not mistaken by later Greek thought. Even the Jews only spoke of Sheol and Gehenna,- not exactly the Hell-fire so beloved by Christians.

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