IamJoseph

Prove your sources that there are similairities here. I see the Hebrew in total conflict with the greek and roman belief systems, dotted with numerous wars, culminating in the break up between Judaism and Christianity - solely because of the Greek and Roman input which was rejected by the Jews but condoned by Christianity.

Evidence for both David and Solomon have been discovered, and posted in this forum.

Toto

Has not.

There is no evidence at all for Solomon, and very equivocal evidence for David (or a House of David.)

premjan

David is just before Solomon. If one is fake the other one might be too.

semiopen

The Canaanite dieties were often qualified with a place name such as Yahveh from Sinai, Yahveh from Seir. The same applies to Baal, where the Baal of the first temple may have been Melkart, Baal of Tyre, seeing as how the king of Tyre was nice enough to give Solomon a hand.

This is Hiram I, we know there is a Hiram II from the time of Josiah, Finkelstein thinks Hiram I probably didn't exist.

With all these ambiguities, I'm not sure how we can seriously talk of an underlying monotheism in a secular forum.

There was the incident with the Golden Calf (ever wonder why they decided to make a calf?). The snake idol Moses used which was eventually destroyed by Hezekiah. The two calfs of Jeroboam. The idol worship set up by Solomon, including human sacrifices. This is from the bible.

Toto, rightfully corrects this. I'm very disappointed in your postings. I originally thought you were well meaning, but it is difficult to imagine that you have been honestly duped by these lies.

Anat

IamJoseph, do you have any direct evidence (which among other things means outside the Bible) that support the claim that before the Babylonian exile there was monotheism in Judah or Israel? We have evidence that some people in that area revered Yahweh of Samaria and Yahweh of Teman.

IamJoseph

Prior to Egypt, the Hebrews followed the laws of Abraham's monotheism, and were at variance with their Canaanite counterparts. An example relates to forbidding Hebrew marraiges with Canaanites, unless they accepted the covenant of circumsizion, as derived with Abraham. The canaanites accepted this when a canaanite Prince wanted to marry Dinah, Jacob's daughter. They begat a child by the name of 'Anat'! This clearly is an affront to those claiming the canaanites indulged in Monotheism - the reverse is the truth - the Canaanites were a vasal state of Egypt and followed that same belief system and revered the Pharoah as divine - the reason they were not one of the slave groups. Two of the eight canaanite groups recalled this history, and sided with the Jews when Joshua returned with the Hebrews.

When the Hebrews were later in Egypt, they did not follow the Egyptian belief system, and remained a different peoples, the reason for the Egyptian Preists' war with them, and their decree of genocide upon the Hebrew males, to eradicate the Hebrews and Monotheism.

Babylon, like Egypt and Rome, also had this war subsequent to the jews being different in their beliefs, rejecting divine human kings, and seen as an affront to the Roman rulers. The war which exiled the Jews to Babylon continued the Monotheist belief, even after the Babylonians were later conquered by Persia [The Book of Esther], and again when Greece conquered Persia - the Greeks translated the Hebrew bible, which was already in place for centuries, and which is a book about Monotheism. Alexander, who appreciated the jewish belief and instigated the Septuagint translation - was most probably assassinated by Hellenist preists whose status had been eroded by this work. The war with the Romans is the same as the variances with Christianity - its about divine human worship, which the Jews saw as the antithesis of Monotheism. This is now an irrisolvable paradigm, sustained only by a temporary tolerance: Christianity cannot sustain itself without the divine human belief - the same which confronted Greece and Rome.

There was and is no such thing as Judaism where absolute Monotheism is not the upper most preamble - it is the only feature which marks them as varied from all other nations and beliefs since their inception.

IamJoseph

The Gold calf affair confirms, not contradicts, the Hebrews were Monotheists. There was a Hebrew named Dathan, a task master who alligned with the Egyptians, but had to leave when the all Hebrew vacated. He instigated a return to Egypt, headed by an Egyptian diety, promising great rewards to those who followed him ['They yearned for the fleshpots of Egypt'], and this group was repelled by a war within the Hebrews. They passed this test even before receving the Law at Sinai, and thus entered the land they came from.


Forbiddence of human sacrifice was introduced in the Hebrew bible; and all animal sacrifice was made subject only to accidental sins and crimes & as a thanksgiving offer, and only conductable in one nominated place - the temple. This eliminated 99% of animal sacrifices in one single stroke.

There is a report which many use wrongly and also fraudulently. There was one king who made a vow openly before the people to sacrfice the first thing he saw when returning home, as a thanks giving of his victory in a war. He would have obviously meant a sacrifice of the first animal he saw - while all human sacrifices would not have even been considered. However, because he made a royal oath before the people, which could not be dis-avowed, he became obligated to sacrifice his own daughter - because she ran first to greet him. This is just a singular tragic anomoly which is used by some to change a large historical blanket.

IamJoseph

On the contrary. There is no human historical figure, 3000 years old, which has more evidence than with David anywhere in history: name that figure? There is greater evidence of David than even much later figures like Buddha and Jesus. There is also a host of evidences aside from the House of David discovery.

Solomon is easily provable, not only from the history of a Temple, but a navy he conducted with the Pheonecians, commercial trade with Lebanon, Ethiopia and Yemen, and peace treates with a host of nations including Egypt.

Anat

Any evidence that Abraham was a historical person, and that person was monotheism?
What evidence do you have for a group that lived in Canaan and did not marry other Canaanites?
Any evidence that Dinah was a historical person?
Any evidence that the Pharaohs were venerated in Canaan?
Any evidence that Joshua was a historical person?
Any evidence that people who had lived in Egypt for several centuries invaded Canaan and took over a large part of it?

Repeating the Bible is not evidence for historical events because we have no evidence that the stories of the Bible come from the time referred to. In fact the stories contain clues that point to them being much later - for example the mention of Philistines in Genesis.

What evidence do you have that Hebrews were in Egypt? (And escaped and wandered the desert, and spent 38 years in Kadesh Barnea)

What evidence do you have that anything similar to Judaism existed before the babylonian exile?

IamJoseph

I agree that one cannot state portions from one source to prove portions in another source of the same document, where no outside evidences can be seen - a situation we see with the Gospels. But this is not the case here.

Re Joshua, a very early period when writings is so sparse it is not credible to ask for too much proof. But this figure was recently celebrated his anniversary at his burial site. That the Israelites returned and establshed themselves in Canaan is not subject to dispute, it is an historical fact. The subject of Dinah is not provable, because it is a domestic family issue - but Dinah's daughter was also taken as a slave to Egypt, and she ended up marrying Joseph, the Hebrew visar of Egypt, who recognised the talisman she wore as belonging to his father Jacob. That the Israelites were in Egypt is seen in an Egyptian stelle over 3000 years old. Even if these are not seen as 100% proof - they are still evidences, in a period where this is not seen elsewhere.

You have jumped to numerous other issues from that of Monotheism, now asking for proof the Jews even existed - if this is in doubt, why ask for proof of their monotheism?

This is a factual report, and an amzing one - it should give creidibility even the earliest writings in genesis is 100% historical. The original Philistines landed on the coast of Canaan shortly after Abraham's time, and took advantage of the famine weakened region which made the Hebrews go to Egypt. They made their undergorund HQs in today's Gaza, seen with existing tunnels here today. The Philistines massacred one Hebrew group, the Benjamites, who tred to escape Egypt before the advent of Moses - the reason the Hebrew never took the Coastal route when returning to canaan under Moses. While such reports are not 100% proofs - they are backed by a thread of connecting historical factors, such as the listing of contemporary stats of numerous nations, wars, kings and events - of a period when no writings are seen anyplace.

An Egyptian stelle which mentions a war with Israel; the numerous historical stats listed in the books of Genesis and Exodus about Egypt and canaan - and the nations and wars in between these two locations; the historical return of the Hebrews in Canaan for 1800 years till the Roman war in 70 CE [the 70 year exile in babylon, and the Hebrews' return only affirms this history].

This is a most silly question. A host of Hebrew prophets were also exiled to Babylon, some even buried there, e.g. Ezekiel and Daniel [proving these were real, historical figures]; the temple babylon destroyed is recorded in the Hebrew wiritings with historical evidences quoted; the Persian writings also evidence this war and period, as per the book of Esther; and that the subsequent Greeks found that the Jews were a prominant feature of Babylon and Judea, with a historical book already existing for centuries - they even translated this writings! The temple destroyed by Babylon was again erected, then destroyed by Rome in 70 CE. A volumous series of books called the Talmud was written in Babylon, depicting topical babylon events, and its meaning as per the already existing Hebrew bible. The book of Esther describes topical, minute events in babylon like one is reading the Sunday papers. Proof does not get better.